[Reader-list] gujrat election

[we wi]

What to say on this? A Gem.  Let me write some thing more by pinpointing
   
      1)    Partha is here to just condemn Dhatri.  To avoid this accusation slowly turned like this I feel(don't know exactly right or wrong). Partha is educated and working in TECHNOLOGY industry as a top-notch professional with relatives spread across India starting from Present Bangladesh,to Punjab,Kashmir,Gujarat,Maharashtra. 
   
     2)  A Temple is a temple under a small roof or in a huge big mahal which is constructed by individuals or kings.  The DEITY can be a SWAYAMBHU or placed upon a YANTRA with appropriate method. The chanting MANTRA will be the same everywhere if the worship is in USA/UK/AUSTRALIA/SINGAPORE/INDIA anywhere or if it is in your home. One must have to read the same SANKALP. Irrespective of place and position holding in society, there are homes where people could not take food without offering it to deity.   The place got a name with the deity and the underlying Yantra with a corresponding Mantra related to that Yantra. Just imagine on a particular month(fall under seasons),particular day like Monday being Chaviti, if one of the practitioner of the SANKALP chant Sunday/Tuesday with Tadiya/Panchami the impact is what. Scientific way to say that the corresponding Mantra is tuned to that Yantra and the chanting will create Power. The sacrifice is simply useless and create
 vulnerable impacts. Hence urban or rural  the motive is same but the believers slightly vary.  To support this let me bring the incidents that just happened in 3 urban temples.  
   
             1) Actress Jayamala visited Ayyappa temple and the later incidents
             2) Actress Meerajasmin visited a urban temple and the later incidents
             3) Grand son of Vayalar Ravi(Union Minister) Visiting the urban temple and later incidents.
   
  http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/01temple.htm
  http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jun/04inter1.htm
   
   
   
   
  All the above people are MODERN/HI-TECH/ and temple I am quoting are age old world famous urban temples.
   
  Olden days people used to believe that construction of temples, digging of wells/ponds/lakes,planting trees are good work so that beneficiary will be the ultimate society.  
      1)   If it is a temple 
                  a) People can gather for festivals
                  b) can rest on the cool floor peacefully(travelers or )
      2)  If it is a well/pond/lake 
             a)  people can get the drinking water 
             b) water for irrigation
      3) If it is a tree
            a) People like you can eat the fruits
            b) People can sleep under a banion tree on the raw floor painlessly (under sun or moon light ...)
           c) Can benefit the so called ecological balance in terms of birds,creatures,insects whatever and of course pollution for now a days.
   
  (I hope most of the readers would have gone through their text books by reading the fact that after the great kalinga war how the Emperor Ashoka changed and planted trees besides roads, dug wells/ponds/lakes)
   
  --Modern days        
   
  Keep aside the donations coming out to charities genuinely in the forms of gifts,WILLS
        gem and jewelry.
   
  But let me bring 2 points(felt they are doing the same work) 
   
        1)  Chandrababu Naidu donated 50 lakh rupees to Azmeer darga
        2)  Amitabachan,Amar Singh,Anil Ambani donated 50lakh each to Tirumala Balaji
   
  Don't these people know about partha said things (development) and prone to TECHNOLOGY Usage(Hi-tech)?
   
             

chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Dear Partha,

You feel my argument is extremely unfounded. But I have gained praise from societies where I work on philosophies that you have categorized old. I will update you for few instances:

1. Sex Education: I along with few more Intellectuals called a conference with some renowned doctors of Pune. And I put a simple question before the medical science:
- Is a child who is 10 or 12 years of age, physically ready to do sex?
- Upon educating them on Sex, will they not open out on this topic?
- Once perception is clear, will not action follow perception?
- If a child practices sex (using condoms), will he not be impacted of various health hazards like Infertility, weaking Immune System being primary in them?
- Since, we are not teaching our child to hold on their curiosity on sex, are we not weakening their mind by converting that curiosity to temptations and provocation?
- Will not this weakening mind result in Hypertention, Migrane, etc. to follow up?
- A BIG QUESTION - How do you want to solve AIDS? - By allowing people to go into extra marital and pre marital affairs with Condoms OR you don't want them to do for healthy social living?

You know what the doctors had to say - they simply agreed and asked, what should be the option then as the children are getting exposed to it through various media.

And I suggested them - Teach them Yoga and Meditation [this will strengthen their mind and body], allow them to respect teachers and elders [They will not open out for sex with fear], keep a eye on them and play your parents' responsibility to ensure that they are not gone from your hands.

I don't know if this is Scrap or Old for you - May be.

2. I have gone and talked with Village people who have seen Caste practice more then we urban people. I asked them few questions:
- Do you know the Saints of India (Asaram Bapuji, Murari Bapu, Shri Shri Ravi Shankerji, etc.) and many of them knew about them. And I followed up with a question - Do you all know to which caste they were born into? 
- Do you know what is their actual names and why they changed their name?
- When you go to Temple, do you find the practice of Pandits asking your Caste and then allowing you to enter the Temple?
And they were interested that all their perception on Brahmins were wrong. Saints who go to Himalaya for Vedic learning undergo a process of nomenclature upon completion of study so that people do not know them as Brahmins due to birth, but Brahminism is about attaining to the Vedic knowledge - any birth, doesn't matter. Even today this is practiced.

'Brahmins', 'Kshatriya', 'Vaishya' and 'Shudra' are Sanskrit names. It is just a matter of fact that Mughals and British invaded us. Had we also done the same, we would have categorized 'Teachers', 'Soldiers', 'Businessmen' and 'Workers' as caste system of western life style. You see, they are simply nomenclatures in the world of Work. In fact, till Prithviraj Chauhan, we never knew anything about religion, not even Hinduism.

And villagers agreed to this. I don't know Partha do not agree to this - he wants reservation as he might be benefiting from it - I don't know. I believing in uplifting the morals of the people of India through their ownership into what they tend to do, not through the carrot of reservation. 

3. Foriegn Investments: Parthaji cannot understand a simple thing - Why are investors interested to take away farmer's land [categorically Hindus]. The whole of this nation's first demand is food that depends on the farmers. And now the trend is buy the farming land and convert that to Muslim occupation. Dear friend, try to do the same in any other country - and you will realize what value you hold for this nation. 
- Why shall we allow Muslim intruders to come and sit on us? 
- If Builders are doing that, at least they are not outsiders to take over our nation. We can develop strategies to counter that and it would be internal to the nation. Any strategy to counter Foreign Investment upon late realization of errors would bring bad fame to the nation in Inernational Market. The best thing is to check it before the error is committed.
- Parthaji is unable to see the Hindu killings in their own nation, what to say about foreign nations. He is unable to see the demand of new Currency in Kashmir cannot take place unless the state is informally segregated from the nation. He is unable to see that no Hindus are returning back to Kahsmir, he feels so though - how I don't know. 
Dear Parthaji, talk to Kashmiris who have left Kashmir. They will tell you how their women were dragged out of Trucks when they were migrating from their, and they could not do anything against the Swords and gunds pointing at them by common muslim population there. Ask them, how the whole mass used to get massacred their and there was nearly no news coverage for that. You are outdated Mr. Partha - you don't see the History, and you don't know that is planned for future. You are living in the shell created by Congress - the false and complicated shell of Secularism.

4. Charas Ganja are imported by India from Pakistan [that also smuggled and earned value for Kashmiri Muslims] is a fact. You don't know, I have pity for that. And India exports food items in return - great policy. Kill your population and propogate your enemies population. I fear to say them enemy because they have not considered us friends since thousands of years. 
Some of them are good, and I appreciate them. 

But I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road to protest Terrorism.
I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road with slogans of Jai Hind and Vande Matram.
I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road and celebrating India's victory over Pakistan.
I am yet to see, Muslims converting to Hindu upon marriage with a Hindu.
I am yet to see, Muslims wishing another Muslim 'Happy Diwali' for their brotherhood of Hindus.

Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai - Arey mere Bhai, jab Tune mere Mai ko kaat ke khai, to kaisa bhai.

I am yet to see, Muslims saying that they would not kill cows because Hindus worship them.

HOW WILL THE BROTHERHOOD GROW? Even the most extremist of HIndus are not fundamental, because Hinduism is not a religion - it is a way of life - and hence we do not find any so called religious book of Hindu containing even the word Hindu. There is no word like Caste or Jati - Hindus are true humans, fighting for humanity - and I am among one of them.

Best regards,


----- Original Message ----
From: Partha Dasgupta 

To: Pawan Durani 

Cc: sarai list 
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 9:50:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election

Hi Pawan,

Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and
re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite
interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting.

Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree with
me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on some
dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'.

1. Sex education
It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of
blouses
(which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants instead
of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British hangover
for what
they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there are
countless
instances that will prove this to you.

2. Reservations
Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a
whole from
the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact that
'lower castes'
are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be
from birth,
I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or
lower) than
me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just
because
some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are automatically
superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because
someone
is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically
incapable.
And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and
incapable)
irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a bad
high caste
ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't the
Indian Nation
need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness?

3. Foreign Investments
The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The
bigger evil
(though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat
the state and the
law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram to
the Registrar
of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is subject
to many
regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at
catching the
people who are supposed to administrate it for public good.


4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the
British came
into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on Shiv
Ratri in India.
Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or gender
- it is purely
a personal problem that can afflict anyone.

I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which I'm
sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu
(atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the right
to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me
what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think. As
a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal
belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and totally
unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree
with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that
signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu')

Rgds, Partha
...........................

On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani 
wrote:

> Hello Adhimoolan ,
>
>
>
> I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are many
> who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu .
>
>
>
> It hurts
>
>
>
> God Bless....
>
>
>
> Pawan
>
>
>
> On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam wrote:
>
> > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing that
> > a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist forces.
> > The return of barbarism.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > *From:* chanchal malviya 
> >
> > *To:* Vedavati Jogi ; reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com
> >
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> >
> >
> > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation
> > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is
> > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the
> > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has
> > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly
> > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the
> > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and
> > girls around in the name freedom.
> >
> > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces,
> > separating people from people.
> > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a
> > ver fast pace
> > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all
> > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare
> > the nation as Islamic state
> > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands
> > through local Muslims
> > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are
> > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are
> > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated
> > children of careless parents.
> > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying
> > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who
> > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it
> > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both
> > area.
> > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries
> > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work
> > for India
> > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our
> > own country.
> > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when
> > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to
> > achieve this nation as a group.
> >
> > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now
> > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and
> > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over.
> >
> > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk
> > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as
> > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not
> > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have
> > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news.
> >
> > Jai Hind,
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Vedavati Jogi 
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> >
> >
> > what is meant by 'your beloved' country?
> > don't you stay in this country?
> > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism?
> > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To:
> > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com;
> > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date:
> > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to
> > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American
> > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners
> > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If
> > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second
> > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of
> > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the
> > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were >
> > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che>
> > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and
> > > Muslims had
> > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for
> > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How
> > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do
> > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you
> > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just
> > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I
> > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core
> > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra
> > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be
> > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power?
> > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of
> > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya
> > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi"
> > > To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; <
> > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent: Tuesday,
> > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >
> > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find
> > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> >
> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > >
> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own
> > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt
> > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on
> > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal
> > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >>
> > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram
> > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too
> > are the sons of this soil,
> > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor?
> > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has
> > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that
> > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are
> > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from
> > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren
> > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because
> > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for
> > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then
> > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform
> > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields
> > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never
> > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this
> > 'false > >
> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > >
> > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been
> > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am
> > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take
> > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to
> > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims
> > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat
> > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is
> > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians &
> > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if
> > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation
> > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try
> > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date:
> > Tue, 25 Dec
> > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > >
> > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> > ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not
> > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including
> > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims,
> > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former
> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't
> > think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and
> > torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress
> > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are
> > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not),
> > you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to

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