[Reader-list] gujrat election
Partha Dasgupta
parthaekka at gmail.com
Fri Jan 11 09:24:03 IST 2008
Dear Chanchal,
1. On the issue of Sex Eductaion. Let us look at two different scenario's.
a) The theoretical pristine world where every child is pure and
unknowing
of anything to do with sex till they attain puberty. At that age
someone
will have to explain about 'birds and bees'. The point is that at
some age
even when the child is completely protected (and which I believe
is not
possible in Delhi at least unless you keep the child locked up)
you will
have to educate the child about sex.
b) The way things are (in Delhi, at least, where I live) that as I'm
at a traffic
light waiting o even walking with my children in a market on a
weekend
and somebody uses a swear word that refers to a sexual act.
Unfortunately
in Delhi these words seem to be used as punctiation marks. My
children do
ask what these words mean. I have not had a TV at home since my
children
were born since most of the programs are inappropriate but I can
not stop them
from living in the Delhi or blinker them - if I did, I would be
crippling them as they
would someday have to come out and deal with the world, and that
day they would
be lost. It's like allowing my daughter and son to ride cycles
without trainer wheels.
Yes, it hurts me when they fall and scrape their knees but I have
to be able to let
go. Can I stop them from knowing about sex in school or what they
whisper amongst
friends? Not possible. However, as a father I can ensure that at
least whatever
knowledge they have is not incorrect.
2. On caste. Every other day we hear of Dalits being tortured or not
allowed in temples.
That is the face of caste practices that I am against. Just as a
someone with a
crippled leg can not win a race against someone who's got two
properly functional
legs; someone who for generations has had no education needs help to
compete
against people who for generations have had access to education and
therefore
can support their children better in learning.
My personal benefit from reservation? Yes, I do and I'm proud of it.
Every person who
makes a step forward through education or jobs is one more Indian
who's taking India
one more step forward - from the peon who was in my office and
completed his
schooling in the National Opening School to move away for a better job
to however
many more who break free from the shackles of caste and poverty to
rise above.
Dear Chanchal, maybe mine is a simplistic point of view but I firmly
believe that for
India to move ahead and become a 'superpower', each and every Indian
has to be
empowered irrespective of caste, religion or gender. Else there will
always be the
pockets of the 'left out' much like the hidden 'Red Indian
Reservations' in the US.
3. Foreign Investment. From World Bank to Japan, we have had investments
that
helped build roads, ports - or even the Narmada dam. Have they all
been people
who came to 'steal'? No. All i'm saying is drop the blind hate and
look at the
merits of each case irrespective of where it came from - just as you
talked of
monitoring Indian builders.
4. On the 'Muslim' issue. There are a number of points that have got mixed
in here.
a) 'Muslim Invaders' - After these centuries / decades can you turn
around and
define that Mr A is a 'invader' and Mr B is a convert? Not
possible. Whoever
is here today is an Indian and has as much of a right to be in
India as you or I.
b) The people I know have protested against terrorist acts (Muslims,
Christians
and otherwise). Just because one terrorist is a Muslim (or a
Sikh, for that
matter as was captured a few days back) does not make all Muslims
or Sikhs
terrorists. If you go to a doctor or a teacher, do you go to them
because they
are good in their respective profession or because of their
religion / caste?
It's like a tribe that's branded as theives - if one or two of
them committed a
robbery does that make the entire tribe theives. Do all Hindu's
become wife
killers because some Hindu killed his wife in Delhi a short while
back. This
generic branding of people is dangerous and cannot be true. Sure,
what you say
may apply to some - as in some terrorists are Muslims or Sikhs,
but then the
point is that they are terrorists who happen to be of a certain
religion or place.
That's as insane as saying all Kashmiri's or Pkistani's are
terrorists just
because some people from these places are terrorists!!
5. As for Charas, etc. In my school days used to visit Himachal
fairly often, and
have seen it growing wild and being sold by the local baba's
there. Other than
Pakistan and Afghanistan, India is also know for these drugs.
Rgds, Partha
..................................................
On Jan 10, 2008 11:32 AM, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Dear Partha,
>
> You feel my argument is extremely unfounded. But I have gained praise from
> societies where I work on philosophies that you have categorized old. I will
> update you for few instances:
>
> 1. Sex Education: I along with few more Intellectuals called a conference
> with some renowned doctors of Pune. And I put a simple question before the
> medical science:
> - Is a child who is 10 or 12 years of age, physically ready to do sex?
> - Upon educating them on Sex, will they not open out on this topic?
> - Once perception is clear, will not action follow perception?
> - If a child practices sex (using condoms), will he not be impacted of
> various health hazards like Infertility, weaking Immune System being primary
> in them?
> - Since, we are not teaching our child to hold on their curiosity on
> sex, are we not weakening their mind by converting that curiosity to
> temptations and provocation?
> - Will not this weakening mind result in Hypertention, Migrane, etc.
> to follow up?
> - A BIG QUESTION - How do you want to solve AIDS? - By allowing people
> to go into extra marital and pre marital affairs with Condoms OR you don't
> want them to do for healthy social living?
>
> You know what the doctors had to say - they simply agreed and asked, what
> should be the option then as the children are getting exposed to it through
> various media.
>
> And I suggested them - Teach them Yoga and Meditation [this will
> strengthen their mind and body], allow them to respect teachers and elders
> [They will not open out for sex with fear], keep a eye on them and play your
> parents' responsibility to ensure that they are not gone from your hands.
>
> I don't know if this is Scrap or Old for you - May be.
>
> 2. I have gone and talked with Village people who have seen Caste practice
> more then we urban people. I asked them few questions:
> - Do you know the Saints of India (Asaram Bapuji, Murari Bapu, Shri
> Shri Ravi Shankerji, etc.) and many of them knew about them. And I followed
> up with a question - Do you all know to which caste they were born into?
> - Do you know what is their actual names and why they changed their
> name?
> - When you go to Temple, do you find the practice of Pandits asking
> your Caste and then allowing you to enter the Temple?
> And they were interested that all their perception on Brahmins were
> wrong. Saints who go to Himalaya for Vedic learning undergo a process of
> nomenclature upon completion of study so that people do not know them as
> Brahmins due to birth, but Brahminism is about attaining to the Vedic
> knowledge - any birth, doesn't matter. Even today this is practiced.
>
> 'Brahmins', 'Kshatriya', 'Vaishya' and 'Shudra' are Sanskrit names. It is
> just a matter of fact that Mughals and British invaded us. Had we also done
> the same, we would have categorized 'Teachers', 'Soldiers', 'Businessmen'
> and 'Workers' as caste system of western life style. You see, they are
> simply nomenclatures in the world of Work. In fact, till Prithviraj Chauhan,
> we never knew anything about religion, not even Hinduism.
>
> And villagers agreed to this. I don't know Partha do not agree to this -
> he wants reservation as he might be benefiting from it - I don't know. I
> believing in uplifting the morals of the people of India through their
> ownership into what they tend to do, not through the carrot of reservation.
>
> 3. Foriegn Investments: Parthaji cannot understand a simple thing - Why
> are investors interested to take away farmer's land [categorically Hindus].
> The whole of this nation's first demand is food that depends on the farmers.
> And now the trend is buy the farming land and convert that to Muslim
> occupation. Dear friend, try to do the same in any other country - and you
> will realize what value you hold for this nation.
> - Why shall we allow Muslim intruders to come and sit on us?
> - If Builders are doing that, at least they are not outsiders to take
> over our nation. We can develop strategies to counter that and it would be
> internal to the nation. Any strategy to counter Foreign Investment upon late
> realization of errors would bring bad fame to the nation in Inernational
> Market. The best thing is to check it before the error is committed.
> - Parthaji is unable to see the Hindu killings in their own nation,
> what to say about foreign nations. He is unable to see the demand of new
> Currency in Kashmir cannot take place unless the state is informally
> segregated from the nation. He is unable to see that no Hindus are returning
> back to Kahsmir, he feels so though - how I don't know.
> Dear Parthaji, talk to Kashmiris who have left Kashmir. They will tell you
> how their women were dragged out of Trucks when they were migrating from
> their, and they could not do anything against the Swords and gunds pointing
> at them by common muslim population there. Ask them, how the whole mass used
> to get massacred their and there was nearly no news coverage for that. You
> are outdated Mr. Partha - you don't see the History, and you don't know that
> is planned for future. You are living in the shell created by Congress - the
> false and complicated shell of Secularism.
>
> 4. Charas Ganja are imported by India from Pakistan [that also smuggled
> and earned value for Kashmiri Muslims] is a fact. You don't know, I have
> pity for that. And India exports food items in return - great policy. Kill
> your population and propogate your enemies population. I fear to say them
> enemy because they have not considered us friends since thousands of years.
> Some of them are good, and I appreciate them.
>
> But I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road to protest Terrorism.
> I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road with slogans of Jai Hind and Vande
> Matram.
> I am yet to see, Muslims coming on road and celebrating India's victory
> over Pakistan.
> I am yet to see, Muslims converting to Hindu upon marriage with a Hindu.
> I am yet to see, Muslims wishing another Muslim 'Happy Diwali' for their
> brotherhood of Hindus.
>
> Bachpan se suna hai, Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai - Arey mere Bhai, jab Tune
> mere Mai ko kaat ke khai, to kaisa bhai.
>
> I am yet to see, Muslims saying that they would not kill cows because
> Hindus worship them.
>
> HOW WILL THE BROTHERHOOD GROW? Even the most extremist of HIndus are not
> fundamental, because Hinduism is not a religion - it is a way of life - and
> hence we do not find any so called religious book of Hindu containing even
> the word Hindu. There is no word like Caste or Jati - Hindus are true
> humans, fighting for humanity - and I am among one of them.
>
> Best regards,
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
> To: Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> Cc: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2008 9:50:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
>
> Hi Pawan,
>
> Like many others, had got unsubscribed from Sarai, so just went ahead and
> re-subscribed, and got tons of mail a few days late - which was quite
> interesting as I got to see viewpoints and counterpoints without reacting.
>
> Anyhow, to get to the point I was going to make - I'm sure you'll agree
> with
> me that Chanchal's argument was extremely unfounded in fact based on some
> dreamlike vision she has of 'Hinduism'.
>
> 1. Sex education
> It is a well known fact that prudism in the form of the insistence of
> blouses
> (which were unknown in rural Bengal from my childhood) or pants
> instead
> of lungi's and dhoti's were a direct influence of the British hangover
> for what
> they considered 'proper'. Go through ancient Indian art, and there are
> countless
> instances that will prove this to you.
>
> 2. Reservations
> Per se, for India as to move forward - it has to move forward as a
> whole from
> the villages to the towns to the cities. Also, it is a known fact that
> 'lower castes'
> are still dominated in areas and that is accepted. Hindu as I may be
> from birth,
> I refuse to agree with anyone who may claim that s/he is higher (or
> lower) than
> me because of their ancestral name. I'm sure you'll agree that just
> because
> some one is born a Brahmin does not denote that they are automatically
> superhumans endowed with special powers. Similarly, just because
> someone
> is a Dalit does not mean that they are mentally or physically
> incapable.
> And I have personally met people at all levels who are capable (and
> incapable)
> irrespective of caste. The ex-King of Nepal is a prime example of a
> bad
> high caste
> ruler. Then if capable 'Lower Castes' have been kept down, doesn't the
> Indian Nation
> need them to be empowered so that India can achieve it's greatness?
>
> 3. Foreign Investments
> The investments may be from 'Islamic States' or Indian Muslims. The
> bigger evil
> (though this is a personal opinion) is the people in India who cheat
> the state and the
> law of this land and misuse public money / property - from Nandigram
> to
> the Registrar
> of Societies in Delhi who fleeced the nation. Foreign money is subject
> to many
> regulations and checks - and if there is a misuse, we should look at
> catching the
> people who are supposed to administrate it for public good.
>
>
> 4. Charas, Ganja & Afeem were known as 'Nawabi Showk' well before the
> British came
> into India. Charas and Ganja especially are copiously consumed on Shiv
> Ratri in India.
> Weakness or addiction has nothing to do with religion, caste or gender
> - it is purely
> a personal problem that can afflict anyone.
>
> I could go on and on about the misinformed statements of Chanchal, which
> I'm
> sure you would also agree are completely skewed. However, as a Hindu
> (atleast notionally - since I do not believe that any Brahmin has the
> right
> to stand between God and me) I do have a problem with someone telling me
> what I should believe about how a Hindu should believe / behave / think.
> As
> a thinking individual and an adult, it is my right to follow my personal
> belief - all the more so when faced with an incoherent, immature and
> totally
> unfounded argument that you seem to agree with (and I say 'seem to agree
> with' since you answer Ahimoolam's irritation with bland statements that
> signify unless we subscribe to Chanchal's rant we are 'anti Hindu')
>
> Rgds, Partha
> ..........................
>
> On Jan 3, 2008 10:12 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Adhimoolan ,
> >
> >
> >
> > I forgot that this Forum was supposed to be anti Hindu and there are
> many
> > who have deviated. Please dont write anything pro hindu .
> >
> >
> >
> > It hurts
> >
> >
> >
> > God Bless....
> >
> >
> >
> > Pawan
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12/26/07, Vetrivel Adhimoolam <vadhimoolam at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I realized the need for applying junk e-mail filter. It's amazing
> that
> > > a forum like this gets easily highjacked by the Hindu fundamentalist
> forces.
> > > The return of barbarism.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > *From:* chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > *To:* Vedavati Jogi <vrjogi at hotmail.com> ; reader-list at sarai.net
> > >
> > > *Cc:* sudhakar.koppu at gmail.com
> > >
> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:48 AM
> > >
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> > >
> > >
> > > There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation
> > > 1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science
> is
> > > taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the
> > > target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has
> > > already met the target of not respecting the nation and running
> heedlessly
> > > towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are
> the
> > > brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want
> wine and
> > > girls around in the name freedom.
> > >
> > > 2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces,
> > > separating people from people.
> > > 3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at
> a
> > > ver fast pace
> > > 4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all
> > > parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and
> declare
> > > the nation as Islamic state
> > > 5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying
> lands
> > > through local Muslims
> > > 6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions
> are
> > > being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms
> are
> > > provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex
> educated
> > > children of careless parents.
> > > 7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying
> > > Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they
> who
> > > are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why?
> If it
> > > was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in
> both
> > > area.
> > > 8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries
> > > (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not
> work
> > > for India
> > > 9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in
> our
> > > own country.
> > > 10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when
> > > actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to
> > > achieve this nation as a group.
> > >
> > > There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now
> > > there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular
> and
> > > attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over.
> > >
> > > Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk
> > > Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as
> > > differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do
> not
> > > get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the
> screen, have
> > > the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news.
> > >
> > > Jai Hind,
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Vedavati Jogi <vrjogi at hotmail.com>
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
> > >
> > >
> > > what is meant by 'your beloved' country?
> > > don't you stay in this country?
> > > is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism?
> > > are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash at gmail.com> To:
> > > vrjogi at hotmail.com; bawazainab79 at gmail.com; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> ;
> > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election>
> Date:
>
> > > Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated
> to
> > > African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American
> > > countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and
> corners
> > > of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all
> Muslims? If
> > > you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a
> second
> > > thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority
> of
> > > those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On
> the
> > > other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were >
> > > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru
> che>
> > > Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the
> day and
> > > > Muslims had
> > > no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena
> for
> > > their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic >
> sentiments. How
> > > do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai?
> Do
> > > they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who
> you
> > > think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood
> just
> > > for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I
> > > support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard
> core
> > > hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath
> yatra
> > > and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should
> be
> > > the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to
> power?
> > > Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership
> of
> > > which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? >
> Mehta? Maya
> > > Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi"
> > > <vrjogi at hotmail.com>> To: < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>; <
> > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>; > < reader-list at sarai.net>> Sent:
> Tuesday,
> > > December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election>
> > >
>
> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't
> find
> > > india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to
> pakistan.> >> >
> > > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they
> > >
> > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their
> own
> > > > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt
> > > karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this
> country on
> > > religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal
> > > rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by
> hindus?> >>
> > > > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build
> ram
> > > temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you
> too
> > > are the sons of this soil,
> > > why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor?
> > > babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth
> has
> > > ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that
> > > madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are
> > > trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims
> from
> > > sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your
> chidren
> > > to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere
> because
> > > they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for
> > > reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor
> then
> > > that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept
> uniform
> > > civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various
> fields
> > > in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they
> never
> > > faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why
> this
> > > 'false > >
> > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if >
> >
> > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has
> been
> > > taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i
> am
> > > sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to
> take
> > > action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do
> everything to
> > > garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of
> muslims
> > > but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in
> gujrat
> > > so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is
> > > politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians
> &
> > > seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr
> if
> > > not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation
> > > building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then
> try
> > > to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> >
> Date:
> > > Tue, 25 Dec
> > > 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79 at gmail.comTo: > >
> > > vrjogi at hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: >
> > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> > > ; reader-list at sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does
> not
> > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis
> (including
> > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common
> muslims,
> > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former
> > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I
> don't
> > > think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence
> and
> > > torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in
> duress
> > > under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you
> 'are
> > > Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or
> not),
> > > you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you
> have to
> > > say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93
> riots
> > > in
> > > Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken
> > > against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra
> > > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in
> mass
> > > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to
> be
> > > in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed
> to be
> > > aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32
> AM,
> > > Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india
> is
> > > a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because
> of
> > > majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who
> had
> > > voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india
> after
> > > partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread &
> butter
> > > was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress
> too
> > > followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave
> > > reservations to bc, obcs, by
> > > reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs
> > > and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from
> muslim
> > > community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain,
> > > shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all
> of
> > > them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among
> > > hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination,
> > > indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed
> carrot of
> > > 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they
> can't
> > > hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi
> does not
> > > 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis
> (including
> > > bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common
> muslims,
> > > hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former
> > > because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this
> > > secularism practised by
> > > congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus.
> > > terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is
> talking
> > > about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like
> soharabuddin
> > > is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what
> about
> > > 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus
> cannot
> > > be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >>
> > > >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From:
> > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat
> > > electionTo: bawazainab79 at gmail.comCC : > > vrjogi at hotmail.com> >> >>
> >>
> > > >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus
> who are
> > > facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> >
> Narendra
> > > Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to
> be
> > > understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So,
> when
> > > Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won..
> > > in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has
> yet
> > > to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass
> when
> > > there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a
> single
> > > movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist
> attacks...> >
> > > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a
> word >
> > > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever
> > > Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > >
> but not
> > > Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > >
> the
> > > world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > >
> > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that
> > > all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it..
> Whenever
> > > Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not
> > > religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's
> win...> >> >
> > > Don't you think
> > > that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > >
> Hindus...
> > > can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > >
> becoming
> > > another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there
> is no
> > > strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and
> voilence...> >>
> > > > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring
> Quran as
> > > > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of
> same
> > > God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is
> happening
> > > > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in
> the
> > > nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into
> what
> > > they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The
> day
> > > Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims
> would
> > > start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim
> would
> > > join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet
> > > its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would
> not
> > > have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> >
> Muslims
> > > have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > >
> from
> > > their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra
> > > Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original
> Message
> > > ----From: Zainab Bawa < bawazainab79 at gmail.com>To<
> bawazainab79 at gmail.com%3ETo>:
> > > > > TaraPrakash < taraprakash at gmail.com>Cc <taraprakash at gmail.com
> %3ECc>:
> > > reader-list at sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi at hotmail.com>Sent<
> vrjogi at hotmail.com%3ESent>:
> > > Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list]
> gujrat
> > > electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am
> still a
> > > bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as
> for
> > > formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the
> > > country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus
> are not
> > > Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for
> > > my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that
> > > Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > >
> thatModi's
> > > victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again,
> > > apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On
> Dec
> > > 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash <taraprakash at gmail.com > wrote:> > >
> Isn't
> > > it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > >
> RSS
> > > members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> >
> >
> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist
> Advani> >
> > > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo
> > >
> > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in
> Gujarat >
> > > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus
> have> >
> > > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. >
> May >
> > > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your
> mouth> > >
> > > next
> > > time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > >
> vrjogi at hotmail.com
> > > >> To: <reader-list at sarai.net>; < tapasrayx at gmail.com>> > > Sent:
> > > Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > >
> > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > >
> > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i
> hope > >
> > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't
> always > >
> > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world
> that > >
> > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati>
> >> >
> > > > >> >
> _________________________________________________________________> >
> > > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > >
> > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > >
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