[Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra

[Shuddhabrata Sengupta]

Dear Kshemendra,

I agree with you on this point.

Debates about the crimes of ancestors is pointless, nobody's  
ancestors are innocent.

best

Shuddha

On 01-Jul-08, at 7:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:

> Dear Shuddha
>
>
> An interesting debate. It would be sad if it went the direction of  
> "if not you and not your father, then it was your grandfather who  
> sullied the water I am drinking".
>
>
> Having, I think, a fair idea of your 'philosophy' in such matters,  
> I found the comment somewhat out-of-place. Your response makes  
> clear your attitude.
>
>
> Connected thought - the problem with most discussions on Kashmir  
> (and such issues) is in opposing sides of an argument using  
> different 'point of time in the past' as reference points to  
> specify 'that is when the problem started' and then around that  
> weave arguments about what happened 'thereafter'. When the  
> 'absolute' reference point in time differs, it is highly unlikely  
> that there will be common areas of agreement or even understanding.
>
>
> In the case of Kashmir perhaps 1947 should be that 'absolute'  
> reference point in time. What happened before 1947 can at best be  
> 'backgrounders' for the 1947 crossover. If the 'backgrounders'  
> become a part of the 'main body' of arguments, then any discussion  
> will ultimately only be a slanging match. Not you? Then it was your  
> forefathers.
>
>
> That is why the reigns of Rajas and Maharajahs and Badshahs and  
> Sultans and their 'doings' need to be avoided in a discussion on  
> Kashmir. They 'owned' terriotory. They 'owned' the people. They  
> bought and sold not only territory and protection for territory but  
> also the people.  That is how the world was. That is how the world  
> still is in many of it's parts. Protesting the 'now' is legitimate  
> in my opinion. Protesting the 'past' is foolish in my opinion.
>
>
> Thats it for now.
>
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>
> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Reader-List] Amarnath Yatra
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 5:39 PM
>
> Dear Kshemendra,
>
> Thank you for your considered comment, and the opportunity it gives
> me for a clarification. if you are implying that the 'land grab' in
> Kashmir began before the advent of Dogra Rule, then you are
> absolutely right, and I am in agreement with you. All Kings and
> monarchs (no matter of what faith or dynasty) are land-grabbers who
> dignify themselves with royal titles. They claim an authority on
> land, based on the pure fact of their monopoly over the means of
> violence.
>
> I have said this before, I have no brief, either to defend or to
> oppose, the actions of any king, anywhere, least of all, in Kashmir,
> on the basis of their faith. As far as I am concerned, all rulers and
> monarchs, represent autocratic principles of rule, that I have no
> reason to uphold or defend. This goes for Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist,
> Sikh, Christian, Jewish or Agnostic or Pagan Kings. I am absolutely
> certain that the Muslim kings of Kashmir, with some significant
> exceptions unleashed oppression and violence on the people of
> Kashmir. In this, they were no different, from the non-Muslim kings
> who came before them, or after them. My prejudices, in this specific
> instance, are against Kings and Kingship, not against the faiths that
> the Kings claim to uphold. Hence, I hope you will now agree that by
> saying this I have not in fact taken the debate into 'communal'
> territory.
>
> best
>
> Shuddha
>
>
>
>
>
> On 01-Jul-08, at 3:00 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:
> Dear Shuddha
>
>
> By linking the current day happenings with the Dogra Rule (be as it
> may have been in the context of 'land grants') you have crossed the
> 1947 Rubicon.
>
>
> What would stop anyone in going further back in time and bring in the
> excesses of the preceding ruling dynasties of various other faiths?
>
>
> You yourself have now taken the debate into 'communal' territory.
>
>
> Kshmendra Kaul
>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> Raqs Media Collective
> shuddha at sarai.net
> www.sarai.net
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net