[Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar

S. Jabbar sonia.jabbar at gmail.com
Tue Jul 15 13:08:49 IST 2008 

Radhika,

 a nation can also become anyone's lapdog even without the nuclear deal. Or,
like China it can make all kinds of deals and remain fiercely, scarily
independent.  There has been a trajectory since the early 1990's where India
has opened up its markets and as a result grown closer to the globalised
economy of the world.  You have every right to criticise this.  But please
don't conflate the two.

The IAEA is an international body.  There are numerous nations represented
in this organisation.  All the IAEA will be doing is to ensure that the
uranium that India says is to go towards manufacturing nuclear energy is not
diverted to its weapons program.  Of course you may criticise this too,
saying India has the right to do what it wants with its uranium.  But the
point is that at the moment there isn't enough uranium to go around whether
for its civilian or defence programs. So your protest is really quite
meaningless in the end.  Beggars can't be choosers, and in this case I'd
say, thank god.

It would be meaningful if someone came out and said they were opposing the
deal because they were anti-nuclear weapons, because they have no place in
the civilised world, or anti-nuclear energy because in the long run we have
not yet found safe ways of disposing nuclear waste.  But no one is doing
this.  Instead there are all kinds of vague, baseless accusations of a
sell-out to America or that India's security is being compromised, a kind of
trumpeting up some silly hyper-nationalism just because elections are around
the corner.

All these people who are so concerned about American imperialism have had
not a word to say about Bhopal for example, the worst kind of imperialism,
where an American corporation has got away, literally, with mass murder.
Please note also that not a word has been said against the billions of
dollars that India has spent in arms deals with the US and Israel.

-sj


On 7/15/08 12:35 PM, "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:

> Kshemendra,

 lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been
> exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not
> mine.

  Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid
> will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you
> want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.?
>

  Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm
Subject: Re:
> [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: reader-list at sarai.net

> Dear
> Radhikarajen
>  
> You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing
> the
> simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards
> to
> approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.
>  
> I repeat, going through the
> IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone
> issues and not connected with or to
> be clubbed with any "deal with
> the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA
> and NSG, they are to be
> thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National
> Interest".
>  
> The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is
> also
> inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations
>
> with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.
>  
> Kshmendra
>  
>  
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
>
> wrote:
> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> Subject: Re:
> [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc:
> reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM
>
>
> Kshemendra,
>
>  yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts,
> how
> is it that
> these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness
> of
> classified lines
> for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark.
> ?
>
> Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that
>
> our Mr.
> Honest is keen about the deal. ?
>
>  What prevented Mr. Honest to
> have a honest discussion of the
> deal in media
> and parliament instead of
> blanket answers that the deal is good,
> is in the
> national interest.?
>
>
> In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open
> domain after a
>
> period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the
> citizens
> to
> know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making
>
> process in
> democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very
>
> few democratic
> countries which has not de-classified its classified
> documents
> till date even
> after being a free nation.
>
>   In such a
> situation, the policy makers, the executors of the
> policies and
> the
> citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of
> laws are
>
> manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ?
>
> Even in UK
> and USA the documents are classified once they are
> archived after
> thirty
> years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that,
> the citizens
>
> know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and
> all. Such
> is
> the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will
> be
> well
> informed of the mistakes of the past.
>
> Do we have this in place.
> ?
>
> Regards.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm
> Subject: Re:
> [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>
> >
> Dear Radhikarajen
> >  
> > Questions have a questioning in them so they
> cannot be Utopian.
> If
> > my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would
> disagree with
> you
> > that they are so.
> >  
> > You seemed to have
> missed the point (completely) in my questions
> > and my answers:
> >  
> >
> 1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way
> > whatsoever
> mean that you have entered into the (legally
> > enforceable) deal with the
> USA. Do you disagree?
> >  
> > 2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG
> routines leaves
> > India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with
> any
> country
> > of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently
> blocked. USA
> > need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do
> you
> disagree?
> >  
> > Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic'
> one does
> not
> > come into the picture.
> >  
> >  
> > Kshmendra
> >  
> >
>
> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
>
> > wrote:
> > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
> > Subject:
> Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > To:
> kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Date: Monday, July
> 14, 2008, 12:38 PM
> >
> > Kshemendra,
> >
> >  your questions are
> basically utopian and answers given by you
> > are only
> > theoratical and
> not practical, after the citizens of the world
> > have seen how if
> > you
> are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags
> > for the
> >
> misadventure of America for its leaders folly in  Afghanistan
> and
> >
> Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of
> > Bush, do
> you need a
> > hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american
> president.?
> >
> >  Regards.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008
> 6:07 pm
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
> > To:
> reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> > > Dear PK
> > >  
> > > "Opposing the Deal is
> to oppose every evil of the
> Imperialism."
> > > That sounds very very
> very "holier than thou" and pompous.
> > >  
> > > Questions for you:
> > >
>  
> > > 1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your
> feared
>
> > > "unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is
> NO.
> > What
>
> > > is yours?
> > >  
> > > 2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG
> automatically
> place
> > > India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the
> USA? My
> answer
> > is
> > > NO. What is yours?
> > >  
> > > 3. Let us
> imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still
> > have
> > > to go the
> IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current
> > >
> (nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours?
> > >  
> > >
> 4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place
> > > India
> under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter
> > only
> > > or
> primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? 
> > >  
> > >
> Kshmendra
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray
> <pkray11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: prakash ray
> <pkray11 at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid
> Weimar
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008,
> 8:52 PM
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > It is not surprising to hear some
> of the 'liberated' ones
> (read
> > > Shuddha,
> > > Shivam and Salim)
> mouthing anti-Left arguments over the
> current
> > > debate over
> > > the
> nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have
> > >
> 'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not
> > want
> > >
> to blame them for
> > > their political positions, but I would accuse them for
> their
> > > shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive
> > >
> contribution or
> > > position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves
>
> 'liberated'
> > since
> > > we
> > > write, read and lecture, and we only do
> that. We forget that
> our
> > > 'falsesense of liberation' is a mere
> reflection of our
> handsome
> > > salaries and
> > > convenient middle class
> location. And I do not consider that a
> > > sin. However,
> > > I request
> them to reconsider their 'holier than all'
> approach.
> > >
> > > Coming to
> the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not
> > > articulate their
> >
> > position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness.
> > > Their
> belief
> > > of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based
>
> on
> > a
> > > reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that
> they
> > > believe what the
> > > TOI and its associates say on the Deal or
> the Nano car or
> > economic
> > > policiesetc. Shivam could have researched
> on the matter since
> he
> > > is a reporter
> > > himself. I would like to
> hear from Shuddha on the support
> > extended
> > > by the
> > > Left to the
> UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting
> > > interviewed in
> > > the
> Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every
> > >
> newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes
> interviews
> > > of
> the
> > > politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the
> > >
> Salwa Judum
> > > infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at
>
> regular
> > > intervention
> > > and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the
> former President K R
> > > Narayanan on
> > > the eve of the Republic Day
> which was telecast on DD in place
> of the
> > > customary prez speeches. And
> here on the Sarai reder list, the
> > > right-wingers
> > > get more space.
> Should one read it as 'something' about the
> > moderator
> > > or
> > >
> Shuddha himself?
> > >
> > > I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's
> closeness to the
> US
> > > administration that is waging war against mankind
> everywhere and
> > > continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide.
> I do
> > not
> > > find any
> > > fault if someone sees the Deal as
> anti-Muslim given the fact
> > that
> > > the US and
> > > Indian Govts are
> continuously targeting the community. I do
> not
> > > think the
> > >
> readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if
> > > someone
> sees
> > > the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I
> >
> consider the
> > > nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack
> on
> the
> > > poor and
> > > less-powerful nations. I support the alliance
> of such nation
> > > against the
> > > policies and politics of the US.
> > >
>
> > > Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism.
> > >
>
> > > Let me ask some simple questions:
> > >
> > > Was the Left wrong when
> they supported the UPA led by the
> Congress?> > Should the Left continue the
> support so that Dr Singh
> could go
> > > ahead with
> > > the Deal?
> > >
> Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit
> in
> > >
> elections if
> > > the Govt falls?
> > > Since BJP has members in the
> Loksabha, should the Left oppose
> or
> > > supporteverything only on the
> basis of the position taken by
> the
> > BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush
> not guided by the ideology of
> > the
> > > 'clash of
> > >
> civilizations'?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Prakash
> > >
> _________________________________________
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