[Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar

Tue Jul 15 14:51:50 IST 2008

Dear Shuddha

It was said in jest

K

--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:

From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 1:56 PM

No I did not Kshemendra, 

I was only paraphrasing Samuel Johnson's well known quip on patriotism and scoundrels to suggest that those who take recourse to the 'patriotic' impulse to defend the indefensible, such as nuclear weapons and torture, and the exploitation of labour by capital, are scoundrels. Is that a description that fits you? If it does, I have no further comment to make.

I appreciate your contributions to the debate on the nuclear deal that we have been having on this list, and I agree with it at some points, disagree with it at others. 

Please do not trivialize this discussion with hasty one liners, one expects better of you, 

thanks and regards

Shuddha

On 15-Jul-08, at 1:52 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:

Shuddha just called me a scoundrel.

--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:

From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 12:59 PM

Er,  

Radhikarajen, 

You have still not answered Kshemendra's question.

I still do not see how, when a state considers participating within an international system of co-operation on Nuclear Energy that requires members to clearly separate civil and nuclear facilities, in a manner that states do, for instance with regard to Chemical and Biological weapons, how, its prime minister becomes a lap dog of the US presidency. As a matter of fact, if India does go to the IAEA ( a body of which it is a member, already) it opens out possibilities of completely ignoring the United States of America. It does mean giving a set of guarantees to the International community about not acting like a rogue state with regard to Nuclear weapons. Of course, India, does not want to do that, just as it does not want to ratify the international convention against torture. The instruments of torture give a state so much leverage in terms of enjoying 'strategic autonomy' from the rights of its own citizens.

I am not at all surprised that the brand of patriotism that is fretting and fuming so much about 'strategic autonomy' requires mandatory commitments to weapons of mass destruction and torture, but signing the IAEA does not amount to being anybody's lapdog. Many years ago, I remember that the representatives of the trade unions tied to the coat-tails of the Communist Parties of India (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India (unbracketed), had protested in unison with their colleagues who were sympathetic to the BJP and the Congress, against conforming to International standards on labour conditions, during discussions on what were termed the 'social clause' on workers rights in the WTO agreements. This was done on the grounds of the same patriotism. Meaning, they had wanted to protect the Indian bourgeoisie's right to super-exploit Indian workers, in order to protect 'Indian' Capital in the global market. 

It is natural that those who want to protect Capital against Labour should also want to hold on to Nuclear Weapons as a marker of strategic autonomy for the nation state. 

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrels, and their bosses.

regards

Shuddha

On 15-Jul-08, at 12:35 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote:

Kshemendra,

  lecturing is not debating or exchane of views, we have been exchanging our thoughts, if you fell for lecturing it is your choice, not mine.

  Tell me, please , by going to IAEA and NSG, the nuclear apartheid will come to an end, is the feel and speculation, but at what cost. ? Do you want the one billion citizens see their PM as lapdog of American president.?  

  Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 7:52 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: reader-list at sarai.net

Dear Radhikarajen

You are lecturing me on everything else but not addressing the  
simpler issues that would put things in perspective with regards  
to approaches to IAEA and subsequently the NSG.

I repeat, going through the IAEA and NSG routines are stand-alone  
issues and not connected with or to be clubbed with any "deal with  
the USA". If the USA helps us with IAEA and NSG, they are to be  
thanked. Thankfulness is not sale of "National Interest".  

The (relative) HONESTY or DISHONESTY of Manmohan Singh is also  
inconsequential to the much more important issue of negotiations  
with IAEA and NSG being satisfactorily concluded.

Kshmendra

--- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>  
wrote:
From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 4:05 PM

Kshemendra,

  yes, questions have questions in them, agreeable thoughts, how  
is it that
these questions of nuclear deal were shrouded in darkness of  
classified lines
for well over two years keeping the citizens in dark. ?

Why suddenly now advertisements in media about the good deal that  
our Mr.
Honest is keen about the deal. ?

  What prevented Mr. Honest to have a honest discussion of the  
deal in media
and parliament instead of blanket answers that the deal is good,  
is in the
national interest.?

  In any democracy, the classified documents are put to open  
domain after a
period of certain number of years. they are de-classified for the  
citizens to
know about the ommissions and commissions of the decision making  
process in
democratic rule of that nation. India is perhaps one of the very  
few democratic
countries which has not de-classified its classified documents  
till date even
after being a free nation.

  In such a situation, the policy makers, the executors of the  
policies and
the citizens who have a right to know the procedure of rule of  
laws are
manipulating the records to suit their selfish interests, ?

Even in UK and USA the documents are classified once they are  
archived after
thirty years, that is documents upto 1978 are declassified that,  
the citizens
know the misadventure or the good acts of babus, politicians and  
all. Such is
the power of the citizens, that future babus and politicians will  
be well
informed of the mistakes of the past.

Do we have this in place. ?

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: reader-list at sarai.net

Dear Radhikarajen

Questions have a questioning in them so they cannot be Utopian.  
If  

my answers sounded Utopian to you, then I would disagree with  
you  

that they are so.

You seemed to have missed the point (completely) in my questions  
and my answers:

1. Going through the IAEA and NSG routines does not in any way  
whatsoever mean that you have entered into the (legally  
enforceable) deal with the USA. Do you disagree?

2. Successfully going through the IAEA and NSG routines leaves  
India better placed to enter into a deal or deals with any  
country  

of (nuclear) interest, an access which is currently blocked. USA  
need not be one such country that India "deals' with. Do you
disagree?

Whether USA is an 'angelic' entity or a 'satanic' one does
not  

come into the picture.

Kshmendra

--- On Mon, 7/14/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net  
<radhikarajen at vsnl.net>  

wrote:
From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 12:38 PM

Kshemendra,  

  your questions are basically utopian and answers given by you  
are only
theoratical and not practical, after the citizens of the world  
have seen how if
you are with America, you have to be ready to recieve body bags  
for the
misadventure of America for its leaders folly in   Afghanistan  
and  

Iraq.Australian PM Howard was seen by his citizens as lapdog of  
Bush, do you need a
hairy happy lapdog of our PM on the lap of american president.?

  Regards.  

----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: reader-list at sarai.net

Dear PK

"Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the
Imperialism."  

That sounds very very very "holier than thou" and pompous.

Questions for you:

1. Does IAEA Agreement automatically place India in your  
feared  

"unholy matrimomy" (my words) with the USA? My answer is
NO.

What  

is yours?

2. Does successful negotiation with the NSG automatically  
place  

India in your feared "unholy matrimomy" with the USA? My
answer

is  

NO. What is yours?

3. Let us imagine that there is no USA, wouldn't India still  
have  

to go the IAEA and NSG route if it wants to freed of current  
(nuclear) restrictions on it? My answer is YES. What is yours?

4. Does help received from the USA with the IAEA and NSG place  
India under any Legal obligation to (nuclear) deal thereafter  
only  

or primarily with the USA? My answer is NO. What is yours? 

Kshmendra

--- On Sat, 7/12/08, prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: prakash ray <pkray11 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Farewell to our Humid Weimar
To: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Saturday, July 12, 2008, 8:52 PM

Dear all,

It is not surprising to hear some of the 'liberated' ones
(read

Shuddha,
Shivam and Salim) mouthing anti-Left arguments over the  
current  

debate over
the nuclear deal. People like them, as far as I remember, have  
'always'attacked the Left without any gap or break. I do not  
want  

to blame them for
their political positions, but I would accuse them for their
shortsightedness for not seeing or observing any positive  
contribution or
position of the Left. Some of us consider ourselves
'liberated'

since

we
write, read and lecture, and we only do that. We forget that  
our  

'falsesense of liberation' is a mere reflection of our
handsome  

salaries and
convenient middle class location. And I do not consider that a  
sin. However,
I request them to reconsider their 'holier than all'
approach.

Coming to the issue of the Deal, I am wondering they do not  
articulate their
position except mouthing anti- everything nuclear sacredness.  
Their belief
of the Left and BJP coming together is speculative and based  
on  

a  

reportappeared in Times Now website. Let me ask them that they  
believe what the
TOI and its associates say on the Deal or the Nano car or  
economic  

policiesetc. Shivam could have researched on the matter since  
he  

is a reporter
himself. I would like to hear from Shuddha on the support  
extended  

by the
Left to the UPA for the last four years. Mr Advani getting  
interviewed in
the Hindu must be looked at a mere media exercise. Every
newspaper/magazine/channel including Tehlka publishes  
interviews  

of the
politicians of all colours including Mr Mahendra Karma of the  
Salwa Judum
infamy. The Hindu 'also' publishes Ms Arundhati Roy at
regular

intervention
and it was Mr N Ram who interviewed the former President K R  
Narayanan on
the eve of the Republic Day which was telecast on DD in place  
of the

customary prez speeches. And here on the Sarai reder list, the  
right-wingers
get more space. Should one read it as 'something' about the
moderator

or
Shuddha himself?

I see the Deal as a profound sign of the Govt's closeness to the
US

administration that is waging war against mankind everywhere and
continuously demonizing the opposing sections worldwide. I do  
not  

find any
fault if someone sees the Deal as anti-Muslim given the fact  
that  

the US and
Indian Govts are continuously targeting the community. I do  
not  

think the
readers need fact related to this. I do not find any fault if  
someone sees
the deal as an attack on the national sovereignty since I  
consider the

nation as a weapon against the growing imperialist attack on  
the  

poor and
less-powerful nations. I support the alliance of such nation  
against the
policies and politics of the US.

Opposing the Deal is to oppose every evil of the Imperialism.

Let me ask some simple questions:

Was the Left wrong when they supported the UPA led by the  
Congress?> > Should the Left continue the support so that Dr Singh  
could go  

ahead with
the Deal?
Should the Deal be supported since the BJP might get benefit  
in  

elections if
the Govt falls?
Since BJP has members in the Loksabha, should the Left oppose  
or  

supporteverything only on the basis of the position taken by  
the  

BJP?> Are the policies of Mr Bush not guided by the ideology of  
the  

'clash of
civilizations'?

Regards,
Prakash
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net  
with  

subscribe in
the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
list  
List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net  
with  

subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
list  
List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net  
with  

subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
list  
List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  
subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-
list  
List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list  
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net

Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net