[Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration

Fri Jul 18 17:12:17 IST 2008

That people are too afraid to return? I really don't understand why you find
that mysterious!  Why do you think Muslims continue to live in cramped camps
in Gujarat, or the victims of the Janjaweed in Darfur for that matter, to
score some silly brownie point?

If your answer is yes, then you must be right, I am guilty of a
pre-conceived judgment!!  And now, I humbly submit that I'd like to end this
here, or if you still want to thrash this out then we don't subject the rest
of the list to something which is evidently leading nowhere.
Best regards
sj

On 7/18/08 4:41 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:

> Sonia, it is me who has been making the point on this list that the
Pandits
> are not a homogenous communuty. And the charge of
pre-concieved judgements, I
> humbly submit, applies just as much to the
position you are
> taking.

best
shivam

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:38 PM, S. Jabbar
> <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
> And you are ignoring the fact that the
> community, though small, is not
> homogenous!
>
> Anyway Shivam, it seems you
> have made up your mind about why the Pandits
> have not returned long before
> you wrote your post, so let us just leave it
> at that.
>
> Best
> sj
>
>
> On
> 7/18/08 4:34 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>
>> You
> and I - we are talking in individual terms, ignoring that the
> inerplay
>>
> between individuals and communities they are part of is not
> that
>>
> simplistic.
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 4:12 PM, S. Jabbar
>>
> <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, then you and I are made of very
>>
> different stuff...Good luck!
>>
>> On 7/18/08 4:10 PM, "Shivam Vij शिवम्
> विज्"
>> <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That is a personal question
> directed only at
>> me. Yes, perhaps I
>> wouldn't,
>>> particularly if I am
> part of a community
>> that is
>> overwhelmingly not in favour
>>> of
> returning, and I would return
>> only
>> with a large group. And particularly
> if
>>> I am well settled in a job
>> in
>> Delhi.
>>
>> best
>> shivam
>>
>>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at
>>> 4:08 PM, S.
>> Jabbar <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> Ok, your take entirely,
>>> but you
>> still haven't answered my
> question, which is
>>> would you not return to
>>>
>> your home because you
> wanted to score a political
>>> point?
>>>
>>>
>>> On
>> 7/18/08
>>> 4:00 PM,
> "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>> Dear
>>>
> Sonia,
>>>
>>> I don't think I was being either naive or
>>>>
>>
> offensive.
>>>
>>> best
>>>
>>> shivam
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:58
> AM, S.
>> Jabbar
>>>>
>>> <sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
> Shivam,
>>>>
>>>> I'm
>> surprised that it's
>>> you
>>>> asking this
> question.  It is both offensive
>> and
>>>> naïve to suggest
>>> that
>>>>
> Pandits are not returning because they
>> are holding on
>>>> to a sense
>>>
> of
>>>> victimhood to further political ends.
>> Though there are,
>>>>
>>>
> undoubtedly,
>>>> political formations that benefit
>> from the
> continuing
>>>>
>>> displacement of the
>>>> Pandits, including the
>>
> Government of India, it is
>>> wrong
>>>> to suggest that over
>>>> 200,000
>>
> people who have lost their homes,
>>> lands and
>>>> livelihood would
> prefer
>>>>
>> to stay in some dump in the plains
>>> because of
>>>>
> political gain.
>>>>
>>>>
>> Would you
>>>> think like that if it had
>>>
> happened to you?  I wouldn't.  If
>> it was
>>>> safe
>>>> enough for me to
> return, I
>>> would.  The way things are
>> at present no
>>>> Kashmiri
>>>>
> Pandit would risk
>>> moving back without
>> guarantees of safety to life
>>>>
> and limb.
>>>> Who will give
>>> them that, the
>> GoI that has been helpless
> when
>>>> massacres have
>>>> taken
>>> place?
>> Kashmiri Muslims, who
> themselves are at risk
>>>> from the
>>>> militant's
>>>
>> gun?
>>>>
>>>>
> Tragically, in the past, every time the GoI announced some
>>>>
>>>
>> package
> to
>>>> facilitate the return of the Pandits and the press made a
>>>
>>
> noise
>>>> about a few
>>>> families returning, there were massacres of
> the
>>>
>> Pandits that had
>>>> remained in
>>>> the valley: Wandhama,
> Telwani,
>> Sangrampora,
>>> and Nadimarg. The
>>>> killings were
>>>> brutal
> and they were
>> brutal because the
>>> killers wanted to send
>>>> out a
> message
>>>> in no
>> uncertain terms.  I doubt
>>> anyone in their right
> minds
>>>> would ignore
>>>>
>> that and put their loved ones
>>> at
> risk.
>>>>
>>>> The return of the
>>>>
>> Pandits would signal the end of
> militancy
>>> and a real
>>>> return to
>> normalcy.
>>>> Obviously there are
> groups that will
>>> oppose this unless
>>>>
>> it is part of a deal
>>>>
> between India and Pakistan on
>>> Kashmir.  Only with
>> a
>>>> formal end to
> the war, a
>>>> settlement of the Kashmir
>>> issue, with
>> the
>>>>
> declaration of various packages
>>>> for various groups, can
>>> the
>>
> Pandits actually
>>>> return.  Until then, of course
>>>> individuals are
>>
> free
>>> to come and go and
>>>> nobody is 'holding a gun to their
>>>>
> heads,'
>> but that is
>>> surely not the same
>>>> thing.
>>>>
>>>>
> Interestingly, there
>> are
>>>> many thousand
>>>Kashmiri Muslim  men
> stranded on the
>>>> other side
>> of the border
>>>> who left
>>> Kashmir in
> the early days of the movement
>>>>
>> and long to return to
>>>> Kashmir.
>>>
> They fear arrest and torture.  I met
>> some of
>>>> them when I was
> in
>>>>
>>> Pakistan.  They, too, dare not risk
>> returning until the
>>>>
> formal end of
>>> the
>>>> war.
>>>>
>>>> With so many
>> lives at stake--
> those who have left, those
>>> whose lives
>>>> remain
>>>>
>> hellish in J&K,
> it is imperative that we keep
>>> pressuring the
>>>>
>> governments of
>>>>
> India & Pakistan to settle this issue.
>>> Sadly, the
>> momentum
>>>> has
> been lost
>>>> because of domestic compulsions in
>>> both
>> countries, and I
> don't
>>>> see things
>>>> getting resolved in a
>>>
>> hurry.
>>>>
>>>>
> -sj
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/17/08 6:42 PM,
>>>> "Shivam Vij शिवम्
>> विज्"
>>>
> <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> While a typo can be
>>>> ignored,
>>
> the
>>> question is worth asking: what
>>>>> prevents
>>>> pandits from
>>
> being
>>>>
>>> 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has declined,
>>>>> nobody
>>
> is
>>>> holding a
>>> gun
>>>> to Pandits' temples and quita  few
> happily
>>>>>
>> (especially
>>>>
>>> businessmen) are
>>>> spending six
> months in the Valley and
>> six in
>>>>> Delhi.
>>> But
>>>> many. Why has
> the
>>>> package of Rs. 16,000
>> crores been rejected? Do
>>>>>
>>>
> Pandits
>>>> even want to
>>>> reurn,
>> considering 70% have sold their land
> back
>>> home?
>>>>> And why
>>>> don't
>> they
>>>> want to return,
> considering they can buy
>>> land? Is it
>>>>>
>> political
>>>> reasons
>>>>
> rather than safety? Is is that many
>>> non-Jammu
>> migrants are
>>>>>
> well
>>>> settled
>>>> in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New
>>> York?
>> Is it that
> returning would
>>>>> mean
>>>>
>>>> giving up the political uses
>>>
>> of
> victimhood and let 'separatists' say,
>>>>>
>>>> "Look,
>>>> even the
> Pandits
>> are
>>> back." I am not making these allegations but
>>>>>
>>>>
> asking
>>>>
>> questions. Like
>>> all communities the Pandits are a
> divided
>>>>>
>>>>
>> community.
>>>> Kshmendra Kaul
>>> does not represent
> them all. Everyone has
>>>>
>> different
>>>>> reasons
>>>> and
>>> different
> circumstances.
>>>>
>>>> best
>>>>
>> shivam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On
>>>>
> 7/16/08,
>>> Kshmendra Kaul
>>>>>
>> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A
>>>>
>>> "International Kashmir
>> Peace
>>>>>
> Conference" was held Washington D.C,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> 14th-15th July. It
>>
> adopted the
>>>>> "Washington Declaration".
>>>>>
>>>>> The
>>> website
>>>>
> of
>> "Association of Humanitarian
>>>>> Lawyers", one of the
>>>
> sponsors
>>>>> of
>> the
>>>> Conference, furnishes the text of the
>>>>>
>>>
> "Declaration"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> Point 8 in it
>>>> reads "The Conference calls
> for
>>> protection of
>>>>> all
>> minorities.
>>>>> All the
>>>> displaced
> persons including
>>> Kashmiri bandits
>> should
>>>>> be facilitated
>>>>>
> to
>>>> return to their ancestral
>>>
>> home."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
> http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> Did not know
>>
> that
>>>> "bandits"
>>>>> had been displaced out of Kashmir. At
>>>
> least
>>>>>
>> they are being
>>>> called
>>>>> 'displaced' and not
> 'migrants'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>> KK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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