[Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration

Sat Jul 19 23:59:59 IST 2008

Dear Shivam

I hope that in my words to you, not only the 'tone' of 'someone elseness' was registered by you, but also what I think of you.

You are welcome to stew in your uncertainities and suspicions. That would be in character for you. Afterall your forte is in prejudiced presumptions. That is the foundation of your 'convictions'.

Kshmendra 

--- On Sat, 7/19/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:

From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration
To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 10:46 PM

Dear Kshmendra,

The tone of your message further convinces me that you are someone else.

best
shivam

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> Dear Shivam
>
>
>
> 1. Your mail was not directed at me. It was not addressed to me. Next time
you want me to respond, it would be better if you addressed me.
>
>
>
> 2. Even if you do address it me, it is not neccessary that I will respond
to you. That should not surprise you of all the people. If you choose not to
respond to people when they address you or ask questions off you, it should not
surprise you if you are treated in the same manner.
>
>
>
> 3. You should also perhaps be patient in receiving a response, if one is
coming at all. "Shivam asks" might be for you a snap of fingers
expecting a speedy response. Might not mean much to others. On the contrary it
might be a 'put off'.
>
>
>
> 4. All else put aside, if I were to suspect the slightest sincerity in
your asking 'that' set of questions, I might be more than willing to
dialogue over them with you. They were transparently insincere and malicious.
>
>
>
> Sonia Jabbar was wrong in suggesting that you were being 'naive'.
Sonia was right in calling your questions 'offensive'. I would have
used the words 'crude' and 'insulting'
>
>
>
> 5. Sonia again called it right in telling you "...    it seems you
have made up your mind about why the Pandits have not returned long before you
wrote your post...."
>
>
>
> 6. If your questions were actually 'sincere' then for someone who
commentates so regularly on Kashmir, your questions (especially in the manner
they were framed) displayed a lack of in-depth understanding of Kashmir
Affairs. Maybe you need to introspect after shedding preconcieved notions.
>
>
>
> 7. Another factor you might want to look at could be your lack of
credibility both as a journalist as well as of the person that you are which
might dissuade someone (like me) from readily responding to you.
>
>
>
> The 'contents' and the 'bias' of your writings are only a
part of that 'lack of credibility'. (Making a silly reference by
connecting the Dharmarth Trust to KPs is a minor recent example. After it being
pointed out, your not acknowledging your mistake only made it worse)
>
>
>
> (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched)
>
>
>
> Do you remember your shooting your mouth off and accusing one Abhishek
Behl of plaigiarism? Do you remember it being pointed out to you that you were
in error in your accusation because Behl had clearly stated that he was
reproducing 'verbatim' a document issued by Campaign for Judicial
Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR)? What you did not do is to express
regrets for wrongfully accusing someone of plaigiarism or apologise to Behl in
the same public space where you had so freely accused him.
>
>
>
> That Shivam made questionable (for me) both your journalistic and personal
ethics. It should not surprise you if you are not taken seriously.
>
>
>
> 8. What I found amusing is your agreeing with Sonia, when she confronted
you, that the KPs are not a homogenous community.
>
>
>
>  Actually you yourself had said as much (in different words) in your first
".. not making these allegations but asking questions" post. You had
written " Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community.
........ Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances."
>
>
>
> Shivam, if you know there is no homogenity then consider how incongruous
your questions were in their generalisations and how offensive and malicious
they were (in the manner in which they were framed with accusations contained
therein). Consider Shivam what a sorry figure the smug arrogance in your
questions cut, when in the same breath you stated "Everyone has different
reasons and different circumstances." Hoisted on your own contradictions.
>
>
>
> 9. If your other meaningless dalliances of intellect (or lack of it) were
not enough, you had to go ahead and top it all with your " Sometimes I
wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all"
>
>
>
> You poor pitiable confounded soul. Take your pick from either of the two
possibilities as an answer:
>
>
>
> - I write, therefore I am
>
> - I am, therefore I write
>
>
>
>
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
wrote:
>
> From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return
to their ancestral home - Washington declaration
> To: "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list"
<reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 3:59 PM
>
> Dear Pawan,
>
> Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who
> has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether
> Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the
> Kashmir dispute.
>
> > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things
> > about the package is not known to many people and
> > most of the media just caught up with the headlines.
> > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else.
>
> The details have indeed come out:
>
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1
>
> Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when
> the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the
> Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return?
> More details about how the package would be operationalised are
> immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea
> outright.
>
> > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6
> > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do.
> > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri
> > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group.
> > My idea is that it is less than 1%.
>
> Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that
> if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for
> others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district
> is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want
> to return.
>
> One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS
> PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their
> properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley -
> something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about.
> What are the reasons for selling property?
>
> > where they are welcome as tourist
> > but not as permanent residents
>
> This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that
> the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the
'separatists'
> regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of
> the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists.
>
> (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact
> Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike,
> agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of
> charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.)
>
> > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri
> > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years .
>
> And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow,
> they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are
> refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow
> the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate,
> upwardly mobile community as refugees and  nothing else.
>
> > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus.
> > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a
> > full flow of Indian constitution.
>
> Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In
> 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or
> we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the
> threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and
> assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to
> nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution
applies
> as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within
> the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from
> the J&K government.
>
> Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they
> want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems
> to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue
> is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition.
>
> The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir
> which had independence for three months, which is the only state to
> have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders
> from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not
> extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it
> has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the
> Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed
> territory.
>
> Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever
> whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is
> not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats,
> and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering
> you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear
> friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the
> Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter?
> If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live
> there, why can't you?
>
> And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the
Indian
> Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and
> corner.
>
> best
> shivam
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani
<pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Shivam ,
> >
> > I appreciate your curiosity.
> >
> > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the
package is
> not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the
> headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else.
> >
> > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in
> Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know
the
> percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of
the
> group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri
Hindus
> visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent
> residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy.
> >
> > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten
more
> than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms
of
> Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full
flow of
> Indian constitution.
> >
> > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason
for
> their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or
the
> national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed
> sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Pawan Durani
> >
> >
> > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
> <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what
> prevents
> >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has
> declined, nobody is
> >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita  few happily
> (especially
> >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in
Delhi.
> But
> >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do
> Pandits
> >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back
home?
> And why
> >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is
it
> political
> >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants
are
> well
> >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning
> would mean
> >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let
> 'separatists' say, "Look,
> >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these
allegations but
> asking
> >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided
community.
> >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has
different
> reasons
> >> and different circumstances.
> >>
> >> best
> >> shivam
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was
held
> Washington D.C,
> >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington
> Declaration".
> >> >
> >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian
Lawyers",
> one of the sponsors
> >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the
> "Declaration"
> >> >
> >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for
protection of
> all minorities.
> >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should
be
> facilitated
> >> > to return to their ancestral home."
> >> >
> >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html
> >> >
> >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out
of
> Kashmir. At least
> >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not
> 'migrants'
> >> >
> >> > KK
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _________________________________________
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with
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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