[Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their ancestral home - Washington declaration

Sun Jul 20 11:44:52 IST 2008

I  recollect a quote by Johann Goethe ....who said "I will listen to any
one's convictions, but pray keep your doubts to yourself."

Pawan Durani
www.thekashmir.wordpress.com


On 7/19/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Kshmendra,
>
> The tone of your message further convinces me that you are someone else.
>
> best
> shivam
>
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Shivam
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. Your mail was not directed at me. It was not addressed to me. Next
> time you want me to respond, it would be better if you addressed me.
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. Even if you do address it me, it is not neccessary that I will respond
> to you. That should not surprise you of all the people. If you choose not to
> respond to people when they address you or ask questions off you, it should
> not surprise you if you are treated in the same manner.
> >
> >
> >
> > 3. You should also perhaps be patient in receiving a response, if one is
> coming at all. "Shivam asks" might be for you a snap of fingers expecting a
> speedy response. Might not mean much to others. On the contrary it might be
> a 'put off'.
> >
> >
> >
> > 4. All else put aside, if I were to suspect the slightest sincerity in
> your asking 'that' set of questions, I might be more than willing to
> dialogue over them with you. They were transparently insincere and
> malicious.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sonia Jabbar was wrong in suggesting that you were being 'naive'. Sonia
> was right in calling your questions 'offensive'. I would have used the words
> 'crude' and 'insulting'
> >
> >
> >
> > 5. Sonia again called it right in telling you "...    it seems you have
> made up your mind about why the Pandits have not returned long before you
> wrote your post...."
> >
> >
> >
> > 6. If your questions were actually 'sincere' then for someone who
> commentates so regularly on Kashmir, your questions (especially in the
> manner they were framed) displayed a lack of in-depth understanding of
> Kashmir Affairs. Maybe you need to introspect after shedding preconcieved
> notions.
> >
> >
> >
> > 7. Another factor you might want to look at could be your lack of
> credibility both as a journalist as well as of the person that you are which
> might dissuade someone (like me) from readily responding to you.
> >
> >
> >
> > The 'contents' and the 'bias' of your writings are only a part of that
> 'lack of credibility'. (Making a silly reference by connecting the Dharmarth
> Trust to KPs is a minor recent example. After it being pointed out, your not
> acknowledging your mistake only made it worse)
> >
> >
> >
> > (Wish someone would teach me how SARAI archives can be easily searched)
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you remember your shooting your mouth off and accusing one Abhishek
> Behl of plaigiarism? Do you remember it being pointed out to you that you
> were in error in your accusation because Behl had clearly stated that he was
> reproducing 'verbatim' a document issued by Campaign for Judicial
> Accountability and Judicial Reforms (CJAJR)? What you did not do is to
> express regrets for wrongfully accusing someone of plaigiarism or apologise
> to Behl in the same public space where you had so freely accused him.
> >
> >
> >
> > That Shivam made questionable (for me) both your journalistic and
> personal ethics. It should not surprise you if you are not taken seriously.
> >
> >
> >
> > 8. What I found amusing is your agreeing with Sonia, when she confronted
> you, that the KPs are not a homogenous community.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Actually you yourself had said as much (in different words) in your
> first ".. not making these allegations but asking questions" post. You had
> written " Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community. ........
> Everyone has different reasons and different circumstances."
> >
> >
> >
> > Shivam, if you know there is no homogenity then consider how incongruous
> your questions were in their generalisations and how offensive and malicious
> they were (in the manner in which they were framed with accusations
> contained therein). Consider Shivam what a sorry figure the smug arrogance
> in your questions cut, when in the same breath you stated "Everyone has
> different reasons and different circumstances." Hoisted on your own
> contradictions.
> >
> >
> >
> > 9. If your other meaningless dalliances of intellect (or lack of it) were
> not enough, you had to go ahead and top it all with your " Sometimes I
> wonder whether Kshmendra exists at all"
> >
> >
> >
> > You poor pitiable confounded soul. Take your pick from either of the two
> possibilities as an answer:
> >
> >
> >
> > - I write, therefore I am
> >
> > - I am, therefore I write
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri 'bandits' should .... return to their
> ancestral home - Washington declaration
> > To: "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> > Cc: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Friday, July 18, 2008, 3:59 PM
> >
> > Dear Pawan,
> >
> > Many thanks for your reply, although it was directed at Kshmendra, who
> > has surprisingly not replied so far. Sometimes I wonder whether
> > Kshmendra exists at all or if he is elusive like the solution to the
> > Kashmir dispute.
> >
> > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things
> > > about the package is not known to many people and
> > > most of the media just caught up with the headlines.
> > > We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else.
> >
> > The details have indeed come out:
> >
> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=26_4_2008&ItemID=51&cat=1
> >
> > Your attempt to brush this away makes me wonder even more: now when
> > the government is paying to share substantial costs to return to the
> > Valley, now that militancy is at its lowest, why don't you return?
> > More details about how the package would be operationalised are
> > immaterial because various Pandit leaders have rejected the very idea
> > outright.
> >
> > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6
> > > months in Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do.
> > > I am sure you know the percentage of Kashmiri
> > > Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of the group.
> > > My idea is that it is less than 1%.
> >
> > Well, I met some such and was told about them. But the point is that
> > if it is safe for some to live for six months, why is it unsafe for
> > others to live for twelve months? You can say that a certain district
> > is still unsafe, you arre afraid, but why can't those in Srinagar want
> > to return.
> >
> > One point you haven't answered is: WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO HAS SOLD HIS
> > PROPERTY RETURN? I am told that 7 in 10 migrants have sold their
> > properties and have thus given up their stake in the valley -
> > something that the Pandits who refused to migrate are pained about.
> > What are the reasons for selling property?
> >
> > > where they are welcome as tourist
> > > but not as permanent residents
> >
> > This is completely untrue. The local population is in fact guilty that
> > the Pandits were kicked out in the first place, and the 'separatists'
> > regret it even more because the Indian government used the plight of
> > the Pandits as a scoring point against the separatists.
> >
> > (For the same reason not a single yatri was attacked, and in fact
> > Muslims held langars in Srinagar, during nine days of strike,
> > agitation and CRPF firing in the Valley. It was not so much an act of
> > charity but a politically calculated act of restraint.)
> >
> > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri
> > > Hindus have been bitten more than 8 times in last 1000 years .
> >
> > And the Pandits have been migrating for ages. In my city, Lucknow,
> > they have had a rich history, as also in Delhi. Not all Pandits are
> > refugees, and not all pandit refugees live / lived in camps - somehow
> > the discourse on pandits have stereotyped a hardworking, literate,
> > upwardly mobile community as refugees and  nothing else.
> >
> > > This time the return has to be on terms of Kashmiri Hindus.
> > > And one of the term is a separate homeland with a
> > > full flow of Indian constitution.
> >
> > Pandits did not leave Kashmir in protest of the J&K constitution. In
> > 1989 Pandits did not say, "Extend Indian Constitution to Kashmir or
> > we'll leave." They left because of threats of violence and if the
> > threats of violence have been replaced by calls for return and
> > assurances of safety, why don't they return? And most refugees went to
> > nearby Jammu where the 'full flow' of the Indian Constitution applies
> > as much as it does in Sopore. There were also Pandits displaced within
> > the valley many of whom have accepted a rehabilitation package from
> > the J&K government.
> >
> > Why should Pandits have a separate homeland? And if that is what they
> > want, why shouldn't Kashmir have independence from India? This seems
> > to be going in the logic of the Partition of India. The kashmir issue
> > is an unsettled sore thumb of the partition.
> >
> > The Pandits were and are a part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir
> > which had independence for three months, which is the only state to
> > have its own flag, its own Constitution, rules debarring outsiders
> > from buying land. It has 28 vacant seats for PoK but this logic is not
> > extended to the Parliament of India. J&K has a UN observer mission, it
> > has an LoC rather than an international border - in short, even the
> > Constitution of India indirectly admits that kashmir is a disputed
> > territory.
> >
> > Now you can demand a separate homeland for Pandits or demand whatever
> > whether you are living in Anantnag or Amsterdam. But, again: that is
> > not why you left Kashmir. You left because of killings and threats,
> > and now that they are no more, why don;t you return? And cosnidering
> > you have sold your land, do you even want to return? Would my dear
> > friend ARK leave Ramjas College and go to Kashmir University - or the
> > Vaishnu Devi university or the proposed Sharda Peeth for that matter?
> > If 2500 people who are still there and who never migrated, can live
> > there, why can't you?
> >
> > And Kashmir has something stronger than the 'full flow' of the Indian
> > Constitution. It has the Indian army, BSF, CRPF at every nook and
> > corner.
> >
> > best
> > shivam
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Shivam ,
> > >
> > > I appreciate your curiosity.
> > >
> > > Regarding the 16000 crore package , the finer things about the package
> is
> > not known to many people and most of the media just caught up with the
> > headlines. We may discuss the 16000 crore package sometime else.
> > >
> > > When you quote that many Kashmiri hindu businessman spend 6 months in
> > Kashmir , i may not disagree that the few people do. I am sure you know
> the
> > percentage of Kashmiri Hindu businessmen . Kindly share it with rest of
> the
> > group. My idea is that it is less than 1%.So if less than 1% Kashmiri
> Hindus
> > visit Kashmir , where they are welcome as tourist but not as permanent
> > residents , that should not be a quoting figure for normalcy.
> > >
> > > Also once bitten is twice shy , and Kashmiri Hindus have been bitten
> more
> > than 8 times in last 1000 years . This time the return has to be on terms
> of
> > Kashmiri Hindus.And one of the term is a separate homeland with a full
> flow of
> > Indian constitution.
> > >
> > > For Kashmiri Hindus , the political reasons do not make any reason for
> > their non returning . They don't have a representative in assembly or the
> > national parliament. The reason has everything to what they had witnessed
> > sometimes back , which made them run away to save lives and honour.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Pawan Durani
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/17/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
> > <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> While a typo can be ignored, the question is worth asking: what
> > prevents
> > >> pandits from being 'faciliated' to return? Militancy has
> > declined, nobody is
> > >> holding a gun to Pandits' temples and quita  few happily
> > (especially
> > >> businessmen) are spending six months in the Valley and six in Delhi.
> > But
> > >> many. Why has the package of Rs. 16,000 crores been rejected? Do
> > Pandits
> > >> even want to reurn, considering 70% have sold their land back home?
> > And why
> > >> don't they want to return, considering they can buy land? Is it
> > political
> > >> reasons rather than safety? Is is that many non-Jammu migrants are
> > well
> > >> settled in Delhi, Pune, Bangalore, New York? Is it that returning
> > would mean
> > >> giving up the political uses of victimhood and let
> > 'separatists' say, "Look,
> > >> even the Pandits are back." I am not making these allegations but
> > asking
> > >> questions. Like all communities the Pandits are a divided community.
> > >> Kshmendra Kaul does not represent them all. Everyone has different
> > reasons
> > >> and different circumstances.
> > >>
> > >> best
> > >> shivam
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 7/16/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > A "International Kashmir Peace Conference" was held
> > Washington D.C,
> > >> > 14th-15th July. It adopted the "Washington
> > Declaration".
> > >> >
> > >> > The website of "Association of Humanitarian Lawyers",
> > one of the sponsors
> > >> > of the Conference, furnishes the text of the
> > "Declaration"
> > >> >
> > >> > Point 8 in it reads "The Conference calls for protection of
> > all minorities.
> > >> > All the displaced persons including Kashmiri bandits should be
> > facilitated
> > >> > to return to their ancestral home."
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.humanlaw.org/kashmirstatement.html
> > >> >
> > >> > Did not know that "bandits" had been displaced out of
> > Kashmir. At least
> > >> > they are being called 'displaced' and not
> > 'migrants'
> > >> >
> > >> > KK
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > _________________________________________
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/
> > >> _________________________________________
> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >> Critiques & Collaborations
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> > subscribe in the subject header.
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/
>
>
>
> --
> /National Highway/ http://shivamvij.com/
> _________________________________________
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