[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

[Pawan Durani]

lal Salaam,,

Arti,

Are u a moderator ?

pawan






On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter
> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our
> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but
> bleats to offer.
>
> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If we
> wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it
> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate
> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not
> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as
> well.
>
> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The
> game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put
> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the
> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where
> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is.
>
> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations
> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself
> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather
> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice.
>
> Warm regards
> (as it seems for the last time)
>
> Aarti
>
> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any
> private communications with you at all.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Lastly,
>>
>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology
>> which
>> I can understand.
>>
>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a
>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any
>> member.
>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ]
>>
>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few.
>>
>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the
>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double
>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in my
>> ideology.
>>
>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand
>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in
>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i
>> am
>> really a hurdle.
>>
>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Pawan Durani
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Kirdar,
>> >
>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes
>> him
>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir.
>> >
>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this
>> > group.
>> >
>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one.
>> >
>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra.
>> >
>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont
>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have
>> one.
>> >
>> > Pawan
>> >
>> >
>> >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dear Pawan
>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits
>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.
>> >>
>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" -
>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns
>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims
>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply
>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy
>> >> about the plight of KPs.
>> >>
>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock
>> >> is ticking.
>> >>
>> >> Kirdar
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Dear Kirdar,
>> >> >
>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they come
>> >> from .
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters
>> of
>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless
>> he
>> >> > considers himself one.
>> >> >
>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on
>> >> Geelani
>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write
>> >> that
>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being
>> >> investigated.What
>> >> > makes the two different ?
>> >> >
>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of
>> certain
>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens
>> in
>> >> all
>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he
>> co
>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members and
>> >> non
>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
>> >> >
>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates
>> just
>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone
>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on
>> this
>> >> list
>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate
>> >> .....
>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see
>> >> himself
>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation.....
>> >> >
>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena
>> ,
>> >> Panun
>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything
>> wrong
>> >> with
>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations.
>> >> However i
>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of
>> the
>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its
>> member
>> >> as we
>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for
>> advise.
>> >> But
>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of
>> >> these.
>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all
>> >> odds.
>> >> >
>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri
>> pandits
>> >> world
>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to
>> scuttle
>> >> the
>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ?
>> >> >
>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with
>> Chinese
>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why does
>> it
>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself a
>> >> > supporter of that ?
>> >> >
>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom
>> is
>> >> to
>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has
>> >> undergone
>> >> > Exodus and genocide.
>> >> >
>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I
>> >> myself
>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and
>> >> what
>> >> > not to word.
>> >> >
>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not
>> challenge
>> >> a
>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha
>> and
>> >> > others be removed.
>> >> >
>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so
>> >> they do
>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
>> >> >
>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Pawan Durani
>> >> >
>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear Pawan
>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific
>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of
>> foreign
>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support
>> such
>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I
>> think
>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half
>> that
>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you are
>> >> >> gone.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather
>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please
>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you
>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list.
>> Maybe
>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kirdar
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <
>> pawan.durani at gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Dear All,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain
>> >> exposed.
>> >> >> > The
>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me
>> ,
>> >> >> > Aditya ,
>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are
>> >> nothing
>> >> >> > but
>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder ,
>> >> >> > Shivam
>> >> >> > and Arti have to be.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Pawan
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>  Dear All,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our
>> >> list,
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it
>> >> >> >> is not without precedent.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir'
>> >> and
>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced
>> with
>> >> >> >> detailed
>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case',
>> >> >> >> habitually
>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their
>> >> >> >> desires to
>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena
>>  goon
>> >> >> >> allies
>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the
>> >> >> >> university.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in
>> this
>> >> >> >> list,
>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals
>> >> associated
>> >> >> >> with
>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>> >> >> >> insinuations
>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya
>> Raj
>> >> >> >> Kaul)
>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel
>> or
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be
>> doing
>> >> so
>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
>> >> masters'
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their
>> ethical
>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of
>> these
>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled
>> >> position
>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
>> >> account
>> >> >> >> for
>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of
>> being
>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain.
>> So,
>> >> >> >> 'writers'
>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid
>> >> agent,
>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was
>> made
>> >> when
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
>> >> >> >> propoganda
>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they
>> are
>> >> >> >> being
>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or
>> their
>> >> >> >> local
>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the
>> foreign
>> >> >> >> hand'
>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
>> >> >> >> politicians
>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails.
>> It
>> >> is
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with
>> >> >> >> reality and
>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide
>> but
>> >> >> >> fails
>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia
>> Jabbar
>> >> on
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr.
>> Durani
>> >> >> >> keeps,
>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
>> >> >> >> Kashmir'
>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to
>> write
>> >> for
>> >> >> >> their
>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one
>> that
>> >> >> >> these
>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to
>> be
>> >> >> >> doing
>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
>> >> beholden
>> >> >> >> to.
>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers
>> admitting
>> >> to
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as
>> their
>> >> own
>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who
>> doesn't
>> >> >> >> agree
>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions
>> >> when
>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard
>> >> line
>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti
>> >> has
>> >> >> >> been
>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been
>> accused
>> >> of
>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two
>> specific
>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been
>> called
>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take
>> >> this
>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made
>> casually
>> >> >> >> either.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing
>> what
>> >> we
>> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist'
>> is
>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am
>> willing
>> >> to
>> >> >> >> take
>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank
>> >> >> >> accounts
>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should
>> >> think
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for
>> purchase
>> >> at
>> >> >> >> such
>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a
>> hired
>> >> hack
>> >> >> >> who
>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and
>> >> leavings
>> >> >> >> from
>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one
>> is
>> >> >> >> paid by
>> >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No
>> >> >> >> payments
>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of
>> writing
>> >> >> >> either.
>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing
>> on
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> Reader List either.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> Sarai
>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>> >> >> >> professional
>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly,
>> >> especially
>> >> >> >> as
>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been
>> willing
>> >> to
>> >> >> >> ignore
>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been
>> >> thrown
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks,
>> >> then
>> >> >> >> we
>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not
>> think
>> >> >> >> deserves
>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each
>> quote
>> >> >> >> with
>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
>> >> taken,
>> >> >> >> so
>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments
>> >> follow
>> >> >> >> each
>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
>> >> capitalized
>> >> >> >> for
>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --------------------------
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 1.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
>> >> >> >> COUNTRY ,
>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment
>> >> case
>> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> being followed more closely.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their
>> >> links
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come
>> out
>> >> >> >> soon..."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and
>> the
>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort
>> backed
>> >> by
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> foreign country'
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being
>> >> >> >> ascertained'
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details
>> of
>> >> how
>> >> >> >> he
>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above,
>> or
>> >> >> >> stand
>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
>> >> character
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to
>> >> know
>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to
>> >> count
>> >> >> >> as
>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 2.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL
>> TIME
>> >> >> >> JOB
>> >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am
>> neither
>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader
>> >> List
>> >> >> >> on any
>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I
>> want
>> >> to
>> >> >> >> know
>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the
>> Reader
>> >> List
>> >> >> >> is a
>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
>> >> substantiate
>> >> >> >> this,
>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say
>> what I
>> >> >> >> do, or
>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for
>> >> this.
>> >> >> >> In
>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate
>> this
>> >> >> >> charge,
>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this
>> >> list,
>> >> >> >> or
>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 3.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>> Displacement
>> >> >> >> from
>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID
>> JOB,
>> >> >> >> UNLIKE
>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
>> >> support
>> >> >> >> their
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies,
>> from
>> >> >> >> reading
>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again
>> >> >> >> because
>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
>> >> >> >> immediately
>> >> >> >> before this still hold.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 4.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>> Displacement
>> >> >> >> from
>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail,
>> and
>> >> >> >> also IT
>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in
>> the
>> >> >> >> way he
>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 5.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>> Displacement
>> >> >> >> from
>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS
>> and
>> >> we
>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to
>> me
>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have
>> a
>> >> >> >> list of
>> >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making
>> here
>> >> >> >> that I
>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not
>> have
>> >> this
>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he
>> should
>> >> be
>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 6.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> >> >> >> persons'
>> >> >> >> status
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know
>> what I
>> >> >> >> mean."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree
>> with
>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does
>> >> >> >> "Chinese
>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
>> >> Kuomintang
>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural
>> preference
>> >> for
>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>> >> >> >> referring to
>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
>> >> specifically
>> >> >> >> those
>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
>> >> >> >> government
>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people
>> he
>> >> >> >> would
>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
>> >> critics
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
>> >> government
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone
>> on
>> >> >> >> record
>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the
>> >> government
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the
>> Government
>> >> of
>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered
>> >> baseless.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 7.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> >> >> >> persons'
>> >> >> >> status
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR
>> MASTERS
>> >> >> >> TONE..."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's
>> insinuation
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act
>> at
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> behest of their masters.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> -----------------
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> __________________________
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day
>> (from
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> date
>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable
>> proof
>> >> >> >> for
>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>> >> >> >> scurrilous
>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day.
>> >> Or,
>> >> >> >> if
>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated
>> and
>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request
>>  the
>> >> >> >> list
>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
>> >> >> >> immediate
>> >> >> >> effect.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in
>> >> >> >> favour of
>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year
>> and a
>> >> >> >> half)
>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies
>> (in
>> >> >> >> serious
>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their
>> >> >> >> rubbish
>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion
>> on
>> >> >> >> grounds
>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
>> >> benefit
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially
>> >> when
>> >> >> >> I do
>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in
>> anger
>> >> >> >> need a
>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani,
>> Aditya
>> >> Raj
>> >> >> >> Kaul
>> >> >> >> and their allies.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm
>> that
>> >> they
>> >> >> >> can
>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>> >> >> >> conjecture.
>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
>> >> arguments
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples
>> >> personal
>> >> >> >> lives
>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora,
>> spread
>> >> >> >> poison
>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity.
>> There
>> >> have
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a
>> >> >> >> foreign
>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am,
>> or
>> >> I
>> >> >> >> am
>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above
>> >> suggests
>> >> >> >> that I
>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a
>> >> statement
>> >> >> >> about
>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way
>> to
>> >> >> >> settle
>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the
>> allegation
>> >> >> >> proves
>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false
>> witness.
>> >> The
>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very
>> serious
>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign
>> >> power'
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today.
>> Such
>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is
>> libel
>> >> and
>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on
>> the
>> >> >> >> grounds
>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself
>> and
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a
>> >> >> >> person or
>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
>> >> conceal.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> regards
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Shuddha
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > _________________________________________
>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>> >> >> > To unsubscribe:
>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> >> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>
>