[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

[Aarti Sethi]

Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things I
am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going
to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said about
you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh?


On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:

> lal Salaam,,
>
> Arti,
>
> Are u a moderator ?
>
> pawan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter
>> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our
>> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but
>> bleats to offer.
>>
>> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If
>> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it
>> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate
>> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not
>> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as
>> well.
>>
>> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend. The
>> game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put
>> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the
>> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where
>> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is.
>>
>> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations
>> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself
>> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather
>> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice.
>>
>> Warm regards
>> (as it seems for the last time)
>>
>> Aarti
>>
>> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any
>> private communications with you at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Lastly,
>>>
>>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology
>>> which
>>> I can understand.
>>>
>>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have a
>>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any
>>> member.
>>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ]
>>>
>>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few.
>>>
>>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the
>>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than double
>>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in
>>> my
>>> ideology.
>>>
>>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can understand
>>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe in
>>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i
>>> am
>>> really a hurdle.
>>>
>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron.
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>> Pawan Durani
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Kirdar,
>>> >
>>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes
>>> him
>>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir.
>>> >
>>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of this
>>> > group.
>>> >
>>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one.
>>> >
>>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra.
>>> >
>>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont
>>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt have
>>> one.
>>> >
>>> > Pawan
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Dear Pawan
>>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
>>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits
>>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
>>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
>>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
>>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.
>>> >>
>>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
>>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror" -
>>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns
>>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
>>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims
>>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
>>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply
>>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy
>>> >> about the plight of KPs.
>>> >>
>>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
>>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock
>>> >> is ticking.
>>> >>
>>> >> Kirdar
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <
>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > Dear Kirdar,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they
>>> come
>>> >> from .
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters
>>> of
>>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless
>>> he
>>> >> > considers himself one.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on
>>> >> Geelani
>>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i write
>>> >> that
>>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being
>>> >> investigated.What
>>> >> > makes the two different ?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of
>>> certain
>>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens
>>> in
>>> >> all
>>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless he
>>> co
>>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members
>>> and
>>> >> non
>>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates
>>> just
>>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust anyone
>>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on
>>> this
>>> >> list
>>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate
>>> >> .....
>>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see
>>> >> himself
>>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation.....
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv Sena
>>> ,
>>> >> Panun
>>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything
>>> wrong
>>> >> with
>>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations.
>>> >> However i
>>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of
>>> the
>>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its
>>> member
>>> >> as we
>>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for
>>> advise.
>>> >> But
>>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone of
>>> >> these.
>>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all
>>> >> odds.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
>>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri
>>> pandits
>>> >> world
>>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to
>>> scuttle
>>> >> the
>>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with
>>> Chinese
>>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why
>>> does it
>>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself
>>> a
>>> >> > supporter of that ?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom
>>> is
>>> >> to
>>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has
>>> >> undergone
>>> >> > Exodus and genocide.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I
>>> >> myself
>>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word and
>>> >> what
>>> >> > not to word.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not
>>> challenge
>>> >> a
>>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha
>>> and
>>> >> > others be removed.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully , so
>>> >> they do
>>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Regards
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Pawan Durani
>>> >> >
>>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Dear Pawan
>>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific
>>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of
>>> foreign
>>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support
>>> such
>>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I
>>> think
>>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half
>>> that
>>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you
>>> are
>>> >> >> gone.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather
>>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
>>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof, please
>>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations you
>>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list.
>>> Maybe
>>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
>>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Kirdar
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <
>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >> > Dear All,
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain
>>> >> exposed.
>>> >> >> > The
>>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me
>>> ,
>>> >> >> > Aditya ,
>>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are
>>> >> nothing
>>> >> >> > but
>>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder
>>> ,
>>> >> >> > Shivam
>>> >> >> > and Arti have to be.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Pawan
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>  Dear All,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on
>>> our
>>> >> list,
>>> >> >> >> and
>>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it
>>> >> >> >> is not without precedent.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun
>>> Kashmir'
>>> >> and
>>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced
>>> with
>>> >> >> >> detailed
>>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their
>>> 'case',
>>> >> >> >> habitually
>>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their
>>> >> >> >> desires to
>>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena
>>>  goon
>>> >> >> >> allies
>>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at
>>> the
>>> >> >> >> university.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in
>>> this
>>> >> >> >> list,
>>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals
>>> >> associated
>>> >> >> >> with
>>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>>> >> >> >> insinuations
>>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya
>>> Raj
>>> >> >> >> Kaul)
>>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK
>>> gospel or
>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be
>>> doing
>>> >> so
>>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
>>> >> masters'
>>> >> >> >> and
>>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their
>>> ethical
>>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of
>>> these
>>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled
>>> >> position
>>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
>>> >> account
>>> >> >> >> for
>>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of
>>> being
>>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain.
>>> So,
>>> >> >> >> 'writers'
>>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid
>>> >> agent,
>>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was
>>> made
>>> >> when
>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
>>> >> >> >> propoganda
>>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they
>>> are
>>> >> >> >> being
>>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or
>>> their
>>> >> >> >> local
>>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the
>>> foreign
>>> >> >> >> hand'
>>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
>>> >> >> >> politicians
>>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails.
>>> It
>>> >> is
>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with
>>> >> >> >> reality and
>>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide
>>> but
>>> >> >> >> fails
>>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia
>>> Jabbar
>>> >> on
>>> >> >> >> to
>>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr.
>>> Durani
>>> >> >> >> keeps,
>>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
>>> >> >> >> Kashmir'
>>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to
>>> write
>>> >> for
>>> >> >> >> their
>>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one
>>> that
>>> >> >> >> these
>>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem
>>> to be
>>> >> >> >> doing
>>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
>>> >> beholden
>>> >> >> >> to.
>>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers
>>> admitting
>>> >> to
>>> >> >> >> the
>>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as
>>> their
>>> >> own
>>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who
>>> doesn't
>>> >> >> >> agree
>>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions
>>> >> when
>>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard
>>> >> line
>>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further,
>>> Aarti
>>> >> has
>>> >> >> >> been
>>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been
>>> accused
>>> >> of
>>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two
>>> specific
>>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been
>>> called
>>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take
>>> >> this
>>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made
>>> casually
>>> >> >> >> either.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing
>>> what
>>> >> we
>>> >> >> >> are
>>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or
>>> 'terrorist' is
>>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am
>>> willing
>>> >> to
>>> >> >> >> take
>>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank
>>> >> >> >> accounts
>>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani
>>> should
>>> >> think
>>> >> >> >> that
>>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for
>>> purchase
>>> >> at
>>> >> >> >> such
>>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a
>>> hired
>>> >> hack
>>> >> >> >> who
>>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and
>>> >> leavings
>>> >> >> >> from
>>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No
>>> one is
>>> >> >> >> paid by
>>> >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything.
>>> No
>>> >> >> >> payments
>>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of
>>> writing
>>> >> >> >> either.
>>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing
>>> on
>>> >> the
>>> >> >> >> Reader List either.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list,
>>> to
>>> >> the
>>> >> >> >> Sarai
>>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>>> >> >> >> professional
>>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly,
>>> >> especially
>>> >> >> >> as
>>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been
>>> willing
>>> >> to
>>> >> >> >> ignore
>>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been
>>> >> thrown
>>> >> >> >> in
>>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two
>>> weeks,
>>> >> then
>>> >> >> >> we
>>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not
>>> think
>>> >> >> >> deserves
>>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each
>>> quote
>>> >> >> >> with
>>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
>>> >> taken,
>>> >> >> >> so
>>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments
>>> >> follow
>>> >> >> >> each
>>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
>>> >> capitalized
>>> >> >> >> for
>>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> --------------------------
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 1.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
>>> >> >> >> COUNTRY ,
>>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment
>>> >> case
>>> >> >> >> are
>>> >> >> >> being followed more closely.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and
>>> their
>>> >> links
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come
>>> out
>>> >> >> >> soon..."
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and
>>> the
>>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort
>>> backed
>>> >> by
>>> >> >> >> a
>>> >> >> >> foreign country'
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are
>>> being
>>> >> >> >> ascertained'
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details
>>> of
>>> >> how
>>> >> >> >> he
>>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above,
>>> or
>>> >> >> >> stand
>>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
>>> >> character
>>> >> >> >> and
>>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to
>>> >> know
>>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to
>>> >> count
>>> >> >> >> as
>>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 2.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL
>>> TIME
>>> >> >> >> JOB
>>> >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am
>>> neither
>>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader
>>> >> List
>>> >> >> >> on any
>>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I
>>> want
>>> >> to
>>> >> >> >> know
>>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the
>>> Reader
>>> >> List
>>> >> >> >> is a
>>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
>>> >> substantiate
>>> >> >> >> this,
>>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say
>>> what I
>>> >> >> >> do, or
>>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for
>>> >> this.
>>> >> >> >> In
>>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate
>>> this
>>> >> >> >> charge,
>>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from
>>> this
>>> >> list,
>>> >> >> >> or
>>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 3.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>> Displacement
>>> >> >> >> from
>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID
>>> JOB,
>>> >> >> >> UNLIKE
>>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
>>> >> support
>>> >> >> >> their
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies,
>>> from
>>> >> >> >> reading
>>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again
>>> >> >> >> because
>>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
>>> >> >> >> immediately
>>> >> >> >> before this still hold.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 4.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>> Displacement
>>> >> >> >> from
>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail,
>>> and
>>> >> >> >> also IT
>>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in
>>> the
>>> >> >> >> way he
>>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 5.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>> Displacement
>>> >> >> >> from
>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS
>>> and
>>> >> we
>>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to
>>> me
>>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani
>>> have a
>>> >> >> >> list of
>>> >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making
>>> here
>>> >> >> >> that I
>>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not
>>> have
>>> >> this
>>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he
>>> should
>>> >> be
>>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 6.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>>> >> >> >> persons'
>>> >> >> >> status
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know
>>> what I
>>> >> >> >> mean."
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree
>>> with
>>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What
>>> does
>>> >> >> >> "Chinese
>>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
>>> >> Kuomintang
>>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural
>>> preference
>>> >> for
>>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine?
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>>> >> >> >> referring to
>>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
>>> >> specifically
>>> >> >> >> those
>>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
>>> >> >> >> government
>>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people
>>> he
>>> >> >> >> would
>>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
>>> >> critics
>>> >> >> >> of
>>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
>>> >> government
>>> >> >> >> of
>>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone
>>> on
>>> >> >> >> record
>>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the
>>> >> government
>>> >> >> >> of
>>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the
>>> Government
>>> >> of
>>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered
>>> >> baseless.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 7.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>>> >> >> >> persons'
>>> >> >> >> status
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR
>>> MASTERS
>>> >> >> >> TONE..."
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's
>>> insinuation
>>> >> >> >> that
>>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act
>>> at
>>> >> the
>>> >> >> >> behest of their masters.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> -----------------
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> __________________________
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day
>>> (from
>>> >> the
>>> >> >> >> date
>>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable
>>> proof
>>> >> >> >> for
>>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>>> >> >> >> scurrilous
>>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one
>>> day.
>>> >> Or,
>>> >> >> >> if
>>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated
>>> and
>>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request
>>>  the
>>> >> >> >> list
>>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
>>> >> >> >> immediate
>>> >> >> >> effect.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been
>>> in
>>> >> >> >> favour of
>>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year
>>> and a
>>> >> >> >> half)
>>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies
>>> (in
>>> >> >> >> serious
>>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their
>>> >> >> >> rubbish
>>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his
>>> expulsion on
>>> >> >> >> grounds
>>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
>>> >> benefit
>>> >> >> >> of
>>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech'
>>> especially
>>> >> when
>>> >> >> >> I do
>>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in
>>> anger
>>> >> >> >> need a
>>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani,
>>> Aditya
>>> >> Raj
>>> >> >> >> Kaul
>>> >> >> >> and their allies.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm
>>> that
>>> >> they
>>> >> >> >> can
>>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>>> >> >> >> conjecture.
>>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
>>> >> arguments
>>> >> >> >> and
>>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples
>>> >> personal
>>> >> >> >> lives
>>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora,
>>> spread
>>> >> >> >> poison
>>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity.
>>> There
>>> >> have
>>> >> >> >> to
>>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by
>>> a
>>> >> >> >> foreign
>>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I
>>> am, or
>>> >> I
>>> >> >> >> am
>>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above
>>> >> suggests
>>> >> >> >> that I
>>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a
>>> >> statement
>>> >> >> >> about
>>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way
>>> to
>>> >> >> >> settle
>>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the
>>> allegation
>>> >> >> >> proves
>>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false
>>> witness.
>>> >> The
>>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very
>>> serious
>>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign
>>> >> power'
>>> >> >> >> in
>>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today.
>>> Such
>>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is
>>> libel
>>> >> and
>>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on
>>> the
>>> >> >> >> grounds
>>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself
>>> and
>>> >> the
>>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame
>>> a
>>> >> >> >> person or
>>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
>>> >> conceal.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> regards
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Shuddha
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> > _________________________________________
>>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
>>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> >> >> > To unsubscribe:
>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> >> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> _________________________________________
>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>
>>
>>
>