[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

[Pawan Durani]

Lal Salaam Aarti,

You have different criteria to be part of this group , even if you write
just *anything*.

Why should Shuddha be absolved of defamation of groups which are the only
voice of Kashmiri Hindus.

I still believe that people do write surrogately for somebodys cause and for
a situation like Kashmir , various groups or agencies within and outside
India would have their support structures.

if you dont believe that these group exist , you live in some other world.
And if Shuddha has taken this statement to himslef , it is his problem.

I see that these groups are a block for Shuddhas ideology.

Pawan
PS.... Simple one liners are best suited offline. That is again a basic
group mailing rule. Had i been rude or whatever in my offline , you would
have been right to object.



On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things I
> am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going
> to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said about
> you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh?
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> lal Salaam,,
>>
>> Arti,
>>
>> Are u a moderator ?
>>
>> pawan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter
>>> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our
>>> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing but
>>> bleats to offer.
>>>
>>> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If
>>> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded it
>>> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate
>>> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not
>>> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend.
>>> The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put
>>> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not the
>>> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money) where
>>> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is.
>>>
>>> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations
>>> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask yourself
>>> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts, rather
>>> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice.
>>>
>>> Warm regards
>>> (as it seems for the last time)
>>>
>>> Aarti
>>>
>>> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any
>>> private communications with you at all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lastly,
>>>>
>>>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology
>>>> which
>>>> I can understand.
>>>>
>>>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have
>>>> a
>>>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any
>>>> member.
>>>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ?? ]
>>>>
>>>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few.
>>>>
>>>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest the
>>>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than
>>>> double
>>>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in
>>>> my
>>>> ideology.
>>>>
>>>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can
>>>> understand
>>>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe
>>>> in
>>>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If i
>>>> am
>>>> really a hurdle.
>>>>
>>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron.
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>>
>>>> Pawan Durani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Kirdar,
>>>> >
>>>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What makes
>>>> him
>>>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir.
>>>> >
>>>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of
>>>> this
>>>> > group.
>>>> >
>>>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one.
>>>> >
>>>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra.
>>>> >
>>>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont
>>>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt
>>>> have one.
>>>> >
>>>> > Pawan
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Dear Pawan
>>>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
>>>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri pundits
>>>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
>>>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
>>>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
>>>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
>>>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror"
>>>> -
>>>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise concerns
>>>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
>>>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all Muslims
>>>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
>>>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are simply
>>>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy
>>>> >> about the plight of KPs.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
>>>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the clock
>>>> >> is ticking.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Kirdar
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <
>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > Dear Kirdar,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they
>>>> come
>>>> >> from .
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the supporters
>>>> of
>>>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one ,.......unless
>>>> he
>>>> >> > considers himself one.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on
>>>> >> Geelani
>>>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i
>>>> write
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being
>>>> >> investigated.What
>>>> >> > makes the two different ?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of
>>>> certain
>>>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it happens
>>>> in
>>>> >> all
>>>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless
>>>> he co
>>>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members
>>>> and
>>>> >> non
>>>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates
>>>> just
>>>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust
>>>> anyone
>>>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on
>>>> this
>>>> >> list
>>>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are surrogate
>>>> >> .....
>>>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see
>>>> >> himself
>>>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation.....
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv
>>>> Sena ,
>>>> >> Panun
>>>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything
>>>> wrong
>>>> >> with
>>>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations.
>>>> >> However i
>>>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one of
>>>> the
>>>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its
>>>> member
>>>> >> as we
>>>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for
>>>> advise.
>>>> >> But
>>>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone
>>>> of
>>>> >> these.
>>>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against all
>>>> >> odds.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
>>>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri
>>>> pandits
>>>> >> world
>>>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to
>>>> scuttle
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons ?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with
>>>> Chinese
>>>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why
>>>> does it
>>>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers himself
>>>> a
>>>> >> > supporter of that ?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate freedom
>>>> is
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has
>>>> >> undergone
>>>> >> > Exodus and genocide.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here. I
>>>> >> myself
>>>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word
>>>> and
>>>> >> what
>>>> >> > not to word.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not
>>>> challenge
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha
>>>> and
>>>> >> > others be removed.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully ,
>>>> so
>>>> >> they do
>>>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Regards
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Pawan Durani
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Dear Pawan
>>>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a specific
>>>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of
>>>> foreign
>>>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support
>>>> such
>>>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I
>>>> think
>>>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half
>>>> that
>>>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you
>>>> are
>>>> >> >> gone.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point rather
>>>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
>>>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof,
>>>> please
>>>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations
>>>> you
>>>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list.
>>>> Maybe
>>>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
>>>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Kirdar
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <
>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >> > Dear All,
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain
>>>> >> exposed.
>>>> >> >> > The
>>>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like
>>>> me ,
>>>> >> >> > Aditya ,
>>>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are
>>>> >> nothing
>>>> >> >> > but
>>>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder
>>>> ,
>>>> >> >> > Shivam
>>>> >> >> > and Arti have to be.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > Pawan
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>  Dear All,
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on
>>>> our
>>>> >> list,
>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>>>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it
>>>> >> >> >> is not without precedent.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun
>>>> Kashmir'
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced
>>>> with
>>>> >> >> >> detailed
>>>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their
>>>> 'case',
>>>> >> >> >> habitually
>>>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express
>>>> their
>>>> >> >> >> desires to
>>>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena
>>>>  goon
>>>> >> >> >> allies
>>>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> >> university.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in
>>>> this
>>>> >> >> >> list,
>>>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals
>>>> >> associated
>>>> >> >> >> with
>>>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>>>> >> >> >> insinuations
>>>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from
>>>> Aditya Raj
>>>> >> >> >> Kaul)
>>>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK
>>>> gospel or
>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be
>>>> doing
>>>> >> so
>>>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
>>>> >> masters'
>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their
>>>> ethical
>>>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of
>>>> these
>>>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled
>>>> >> position
>>>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
>>>> >> account
>>>> >> >> >> for
>>>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of
>>>> being
>>>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain.
>>>> So,
>>>> >> >> >> 'writers'
>>>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a
>>>> paid
>>>> >> agent,
>>>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was
>>>> made
>>>> >> when
>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
>>>> >> >> >> propoganda
>>>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they
>>>> are
>>>> >> >> >> being
>>>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or
>>>> their
>>>> >> >> >> local
>>>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the
>>>> foreign
>>>> >> >> >> hand'
>>>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that
>>>> Indian
>>>> >> >> >> politicians
>>>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else
>>>> fails. It
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect
>>>> with
>>>> >> >> >> reality and
>>>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to
>>>> hide but
>>>> >> >> >> fails
>>>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia
>>>> Jabbar
>>>> >> on
>>>> >> >> >> to
>>>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr.
>>>> Durani
>>>> >> >> >> keeps,
>>>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir'
>>>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to
>>>> write
>>>> >> for
>>>> >> >> >> their
>>>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one
>>>> that
>>>> >> >> >> these
>>>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem
>>>> to be
>>>> >> >> >> doing
>>>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
>>>> >> beholden
>>>> >> >> >> to.
>>>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers
>>>> admitting
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as
>>>> their
>>>> >> own
>>>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who
>>>> doesn't
>>>> >> >> >> agree
>>>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific
>>>> occasions
>>>> >> when
>>>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK
>>>> hard
>>>> >> line
>>>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further,
>>>> Aarti
>>>> >> has
>>>> >> >> >> been
>>>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been
>>>> accused
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two
>>>> specific
>>>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been
>>>> called
>>>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not
>>>> take
>>>> >> this
>>>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made
>>>> casually
>>>> >> >> >> either.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing
>>>> what
>>>> >> we
>>>> >> >> >> are
>>>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or
>>>> 'terrorist' is
>>>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am
>>>> willing
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> >> >> take
>>>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my
>>>> bank
>>>> >> >> >> accounts
>>>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani
>>>> should
>>>> >> think
>>>> >> >> >> that
>>>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for
>>>> purchase
>>>> >> at
>>>> >> >> >> such
>>>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a
>>>> hired
>>>> >> hack
>>>> >> >> >> who
>>>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and
>>>> >> leavings
>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No
>>>> one is
>>>> >> >> >> paid by
>>>> >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything.
>>>> No
>>>> >> >> >> payments
>>>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of
>>>> writing
>>>> >> >> >> either.
>>>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include
>>>> writing on
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> Reader List either.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list,
>>>> to
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> Sarai
>>>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>>>> >> >> >> professional
>>>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly,
>>>> >> especially
>>>> >> >> >> as
>>>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been
>>>> willing
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> >> >> ignore
>>>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been
>>>> >> thrown
>>>> >> >> >> in
>>>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two
>>>> weeks,
>>>> >> then
>>>> >> >> >> we
>>>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not
>>>> think
>>>> >> >> >> deserves
>>>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each
>>>> quote
>>>> >> >> >> with
>>>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
>>>> >> taken,
>>>> >> >> >> so
>>>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments
>>>> >> follow
>>>> >> >> >> each
>>>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
>>>> >> capitalized
>>>> >> >> >> for
>>>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> --------------------------
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 1.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A
>>>> FOREIGN
>>>> >> >> >> COUNTRY ,
>>>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>>>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter ,
>>>> Parlaiment
>>>> >> case
>>>> >> >> >> are
>>>> >> >> >> being followed more closely.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and
>>>> their
>>>> >> links
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come
>>>> out
>>>> >> >> >> soon..."
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort
>>>> backed
>>>> >> by
>>>> >> >> >> a
>>>> >> >> >> foreign country'
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are
>>>> being
>>>> >> >> >> ascertained'
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details
>>>> of
>>>> >> how
>>>> >> >> >> he
>>>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above,
>>>> or
>>>> >> >> >> stand
>>>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
>>>> >> character
>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like
>>>> to
>>>> >> know
>>>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not
>>>> to
>>>> >> count
>>>> >> >> >> as
>>>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 2.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL
>>>> TIME
>>>> >> >> >> JOB
>>>> >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am
>>>> neither
>>>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the
>>>> Reader
>>>> >> List
>>>> >> >> >> on any
>>>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I
>>>> want
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> >> >> know
>>>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the
>>>> Reader
>>>> >> List
>>>> >> >> >> is a
>>>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
>>>> >> substantiate
>>>> >> >> >> this,
>>>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say
>>>> what I
>>>> >> >> >> do, or
>>>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid
>>>> for
>>>> >> this.
>>>> >> >> >> In
>>>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate
>>>> this
>>>> >> >> >> charge,
>>>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from
>>>> this
>>>> >> list,
>>>> >> >> >> or
>>>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 3.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>>> Displacement
>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID
>>>> JOB,
>>>> >> >> >> UNLIKE
>>>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
>>>> >> support
>>>> >> >> >> their
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies,
>>>> from
>>>> >> >> >> reading
>>>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job'
>>>> (again
>>>> >> >> >> because
>>>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have
>>>> asked
>>>> >> >> >> immediately
>>>> >> >> >> before this still hold.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 4.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>>> Displacement
>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail,
>>>> and
>>>> >> >> >> also IT
>>>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write
>>>> in the
>>>> >> >> >> way he
>>>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 5.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>>> Displacement
>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS
>>>> and
>>>> >> we
>>>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to
>>>> me
>>>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani
>>>> have a
>>>> >> >> >> list of
>>>> >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making
>>>> here
>>>> >> >> >> that I
>>>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not
>>>> have
>>>> >> this
>>>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he
>>>> should
>>>> >> be
>>>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 6.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>>>> >> >> >> persons'
>>>> >> >> >> status
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know
>>>> what I
>>>> >> >> >> mean."
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree
>>>> with
>>>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What
>>>> does
>>>> >> >> >> "Chinese
>>>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
>>>> >> Kuomintang
>>>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural
>>>> preference
>>>> >> for
>>>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine?
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>>>> >> >> >> referring to
>>>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
>>>> >> specifically
>>>> >> >> >> those
>>>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> >> government
>>>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people
>>>> he
>>>> >> >> >> would
>>>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
>>>> >> critics
>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
>>>> >> government
>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact
>>>> gone on
>>>> >> >> >> record
>>>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the
>>>> >> government
>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the
>>>> Government
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered
>>>> >> baseless.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 7.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>>>> >> >> >> persons'
>>>> >> >> >> status
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR
>>>> MASTERS
>>>> >> >> >> TONE..."
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's
>>>> insinuation
>>>> >> >> >> that
>>>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who
>>>> act at
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> behest of their masters.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> -----------------
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> __________________________
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day
>>>> (from
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> date
>>>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable
>>>> proof
>>>> >> >> >> for
>>>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>>>> >> >> >> scurrilous
>>>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one
>>>> day.
>>>> >> Or,
>>>> >> >> >> if
>>>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial,
>>>> motivated and
>>>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request
>>>>  the
>>>> >> >> >> list
>>>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
>>>> >> >> >> immediate
>>>> >> >> >> effect.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been
>>>> in
>>>> >> >> >> favour of
>>>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year
>>>> and a
>>>> >> >> >> half)
>>>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies
>>>> (in
>>>> >> >> >> serious
>>>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with
>>>> their
>>>> >> >> >> rubbish
>>>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his
>>>> expulsion on
>>>> >> >> >> grounds
>>>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
>>>> >> benefit
>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech'
>>>> especially
>>>> >> when
>>>> >> >> >> I do
>>>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in
>>>> anger
>>>> >> >> >> need a
>>>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani,
>>>> Aditya
>>>> >> Raj
>>>> >> >> >> Kaul
>>>> >> >> >> and their allies.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm
>>>> that
>>>> >> they
>>>> >> >> >> can
>>>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>>>> >> >> >> conjecture.
>>>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
>>>> >> arguments
>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples
>>>> >> personal
>>>> >> >> >> lives
>>>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora,
>>>> spread
>>>> >> >> >> poison
>>>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity.
>>>> There
>>>> >> have
>>>> >> >> >> to
>>>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by
>>>> a
>>>> >> >> >> foreign
>>>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I
>>>> am, or
>>>> >> I
>>>> >> >> >> am
>>>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above
>>>> >> suggests
>>>> >> >> >> that I
>>>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a
>>>> >> statement
>>>> >> >> >> about
>>>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only
>>>> way to
>>>> >> >> >> settle
>>>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the
>>>> allegation
>>>> >> >> >> proves
>>>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false
>>>> witness.
>>>> >> The
>>>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very
>>>> serious
>>>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a
>>>> 'foreign
>>>> >> power'
>>>> >> >> >> in
>>>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today.
>>>> Such
>>>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is
>>>> libel
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection
>>>> on the
>>>> >> >> >> grounds
>>>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself
>>>> and
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame
>>>> a
>>>> >> >> >> person or
>>>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
>>>> >> conceal.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> regards
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Shuddha
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> > _________________________________________
>>>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
>>>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> >> >> > To unsubscribe:
>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> >> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/
>>>> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> _________________________________________
>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>