[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

Fatima फ़ातिमा fatimaschool45 at gmail.com
Mon Nov 10 22:56:24 IST 2008 

Dear Sarai Moderator,

While I respect and sympathize with the cause of Kashmiri pandits (as
much as I cry for the plight of Kashmiri Muslims), I would love to see
a healthier Sarai list with more respect, tolerance, and patience from
every one. I fully support freedom of expression, but I have no room
for any kind of personal attacks and insults.

I support the removal of these people who were asked to provide a
proof of their accusations but have failed to do so.

regrds

Fatima


On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> Lal Salaam Aarti,
>
> You have different criteria to be part of this group , even if you write
> just *anything*.
>
> Why should Shuddha be absolved of defamation of groups which are the only
> voice of Kashmiri Hindus.
>
> I still believe that people do write surrogately for somebodys cause and for
> a situation like Kashmir , various groups or agencies within and outside
> India would have their support structures.
>
> if you dont believe that these group exist , you live in some other world.
> And if Shuddha has taken this statement to himslef , it is his problem.
>
> I see that these groups are a block for Shuddhas ideology.
>
> Pawan
> PS.... Simple one liners are best suited offline. That is again a basic
> group mailing rule. Had i been rude or whatever in my offline , you would
> have been right to object.
>
>
>
> On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Lal Salaam Pawan, no I am not. But nor are you. But then there are things
>> I
>> am not - such as a liar- which cannot be said for you. Also I am not going
>> to be expelled from the list for defaming people. Nor can this be said
>> about
>> you. So I guess the similarity between us ends there huh?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pawan Durani
>> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> lal Salaam,,
>>>
>>> Arti,
>>>
>>> Are u a moderator ?
>>>
>>> pawan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 11/10/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've heard of wolves in sheep's clothing, but this is my first encounter
>>>> with sheep in wolves clothing!! Wonders of wonders, when finally our
>>>> fire-breathing warriors are called out on their lies, they have nothing
>>>> but
>>>> bleats to offer.
>>>>
>>>> Pawan, again. This has nothing to do with democracy or your ideology. If
>>>> we wanted you expelled because of your ideaology, we would have demanded
>>>> it
>>>> long ago. I have never demanded it, nor has Shuddha. In fact on separate
>>>> occasions I have *defended* your right to speak. And why is Shuddha not
>>>> asking that Dhatri or Chanchal be expelled? We abhor their ideaology as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> So trying to play the victim this time is not going to work my friend.
>>>> The game is up. You made certain statements, you defamed people, you put
>>>> question marks on their credibility. Credibility and ideaology are not
>>>> the
>>>> same thing. Now you have to put your money (or Yaseen Malik's money)
>>>> where
>>>> your mouth (or Shuddha's mouth) is.
>>>>
>>>> Prove it, or leave. Its simple. And before you make baseless allegations
>>>> against people the next time, look back at this experience and ask
>>>> yourself
>>>> whether it might be better in your life to use arguments and facts,
>>>> rather
>>>> than lies and abuse, as your currency of choice.
>>>>
>>>> Warm regards
>>>> (as it seems for the last time)
>>>>
>>>> Aarti
>>>>
>>>> P.S Please don't write to me off-list again. I do not wish to have any
>>>> private communications with you at all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Pawan Durani
>>>> <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lastly,
>>>>>
>>>>> My expulsion from the group is demanded by people of certain ideology
>>>>> which
>>>>> I can understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> The expuslion is demanded by members and not from the moderator. I have
>>>>> a
>>>>> right of either replying or ignoring mails or questions to me by any
>>>>> member.
>>>>> So do not remind me of any clock. [ BTW is that clock set to IST or ??
>>>>> ]
>>>>>
>>>>> Even i have demanded the expulsion of few.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the moderator wishes to remove me , so be it . I will not contest
>>>>> the
>>>>> judgement of the Moderator. I myslef runa group which is more than
>>>>> double
>>>>> the size of SARAI mailing list. I myself try to see the group moving in
>>>>> my
>>>>> ideology.
>>>>>
>>>>> So if the moderator believes that I need to be removed , I can
>>>>> understand
>>>>> that I am a hurdle in certain ideology and this group does not believe
>>>>> in
>>>>> either democracy or secularism. So let the moderator decide ........If
>>>>> i
>>>>> am
>>>>> really a hurdle.
>>>>>
>>>>> But remember ......when red fades .....it becomes saffron.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Pawan Durani
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Kirdar,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What makes Shuddha write anything bad about Panun Kashmir . What
>>>>> > makes
>>>>> him
>>>>> > think that someone whom he doesnt like belong to Panun Kashmir.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > To the best of my knowledge , no Panun Kashmir member is a part of
>>>>> this
>>>>> > group.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Is he not guilty of 'defamation' if he considers me as being one.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I wont mind walking out ......arm in arm with Godhra.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > And about Surrogates.........Let anyone deny that surroagates dont
>>>>> > exist........and what would make you believe that this list doesnt
>>>>> have one.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Pawan
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Dear Pawan
>>>>> >> If you read my earlier mails on this subject, I have said again and
>>>>> >> again that no one is mocking the plight of displaced Kashmiri
>>>>> >> pundits
>>>>> >> on this list (can you quote one, only one mail which makes fun of
>>>>> >> Kashmiri pundit's suffering?). Any right thinking person would
>>>>> >> sympathize with your cause. But you have killed your own cause by
>>>>> >> hitting at people who have nothing to do with your suffering.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> No body supports "Islamic" extremism here. They do raise concerns
>>>>> >> about innocent citizens being hounded in the name of "war on terror"
>>>>> -
>>>>> >> but tell me, what is wrong with that? Is it a crime to raise
>>>>> >> concerns
>>>>> >> about the plight of Indian Muslims for instance? If some Kashmiri
>>>>> >> Muslims have driven you out of Kashmir, does it mean that all
>>>>> >> Muslims
>>>>> >> are responsible and punishable for that? This is the impression that
>>>>> >> your posts seems to be giving. And I think the people here are
>>>>> >> simply
>>>>> >> trying to reduce your misunderstandings. Why should anyone be happy
>>>>> >> about the plight of KPs.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> You are again coming back to "Chinese ideology" and "surrogates" and
>>>>> >> so on. But you haven't shown a single proof yet. Come on... the
>>>>> >> clock
>>>>> >> is ticking.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Kirdar
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Pawan Durani <
>>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> > Dear Kirdar,
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I am not answerable to Shuddhas of this world. I know where they
>>>>> come
>>>>> >> from .
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > 1. If I say that we are fighting a proxy war against the
>>>>> >> > supporters
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> > separatists , does it implicate Shuddha of being one
>>>>> >> > ,.......unless
>>>>> he
>>>>> >> > considers himself one.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > 2. If Ray can write that he is investigating those who spitted on
>>>>> >> Geelani
>>>>> >> > and suspect that the person is from SARAI group, so can even i
>>>>> write
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> > the credentials of certain people on the list are being
>>>>> >> investigated.What
>>>>> >> > makes the two different ?
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > 3. If I say that certain journalists are on the account roll of
>>>>> certain
>>>>> >> > organisations or foreign country , thats a hard fact and it
>>>>> >> > happens
>>>>> in
>>>>> >> all
>>>>> >> > countries. Why does it pain Shuddha if I havent named him, unless
>>>>> he co
>>>>> >> > -relates it to himslef . Well, this group has hundreds of members
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> non
>>>>> >> > except couple or more get embarrassed. Why ?
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > 4. Well , isnt Kashmir a Proxy war place ? Arent there surrogates
>>>>> just
>>>>> >> > everywhere ? Would anyone deny that ? In Kashmir I dont trust
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> >> > .....and i see many surrogates in even Delhi. There may be few on
>>>>> this
>>>>> >> list
>>>>> >> > as well. Can anyone deny that ? I see many acts which are
>>>>> >> > surrogate
>>>>> >> .....
>>>>> >> > Why does anyone want me change my opinion. Unless someone does see
>>>>> >> himself
>>>>> >> > as a surrogate with active participation.....
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > 5. If someone can write to me about being from RSS , MNS , Shiv
>>>>> Sena ,
>>>>> >> Panun
>>>>> >> > Kashmir or Roots In Kashmir , so be it. Not that i find anything
>>>>> wrong
>>>>> >> with
>>>>> >> > that , i personally have a lot of respect for these organisations.
>>>>> >> However i
>>>>> >> > have friends in all these organisations and even though i am one
>>>>> >> > of
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> > founder and visualiser of roots in kashmir , I no longer am its
>>>>> member
>>>>> >> as we
>>>>> >> > believe it has to belong to youths. At times they come to me for
>>>>> advise.
>>>>> >> But
>>>>> >> > i dont need to get embarrassed for getting associated with anyone
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> these.
>>>>> >> > These organisations are patriotic and fight for a cause against
>>>>> >> > all
>>>>> >> odds.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Who can deny that Roots In Kashmir and Panun Kashmir are the two
>>>>> >> > organisations who have talked and spread the cause of Kashmiri
>>>>> pandits
>>>>> >> world
>>>>> >> > across. Why does Shuddha always target these two. is it not to
>>>>> scuttle
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > voice of Kashmiri pandits. Do I see a pattern here for no reasons
>>>>> >> > ?
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > And who can deny that there are leftists who get mesmerised with
>>>>> Chinese
>>>>> >> > ideology. C'mon accept it . Shuddha may or may not ......but why
>>>>> does it
>>>>> >> > effect him only when i write about it , unless he considers
>>>>> >> > himself
>>>>> a
>>>>> >> > supporter of that ?
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I do see a pattern , planned one here. The way to celebrate
>>>>> >> > freedom
>>>>> is
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> > scusttle voice of the Kashmiri pandits , the community which has
>>>>> >> undergone
>>>>> >> > Exodus and genocide.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I love to fight a battle on foreign turf , that is why I am here.
>>>>> >> > I
>>>>> >> myself
>>>>> >> > run a group which is much bigger than SARAI .I know what to word
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> what
>>>>> >> > not to word.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > If I have to be removed , please do ....i do not and will not
>>>>> challenge
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> > moderator. But then Justice have to be balanced. So should Shuddha
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> > others be removed.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I know the moderators of this group do read each word carefully ,
>>>>> so
>>>>> >> they do
>>>>> >> > know what and how Shuddha write and manipulate !
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > I volunteer myslef to be removed , but i  company of Shuddha.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Regards
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Pawan Durani
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > jai Andhra , Jai Hindustan
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On 11/10/08, Kirdar <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Dear Pawan
>>>>> >> >> You should read Shuddha's mail carefully. He has raised a
>>>>> >> >> specific
>>>>> >> >> issue of your accusing him and others of being "paid agents of
>>>>> foreign
>>>>> >> >> powers" and so on. He has asked you to furnish proofs to support
>>>>> such
>>>>> >> >> an accusation, for which you have been given a day to respond. I
>>>>> think
>>>>> >> >> this time he sounds rather serious - the clock is ticking - half
>>>>> that
>>>>> >> >> day is already gone. Please substantiate your accusations or you
>>>>> are
>>>>> >> >> gone.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> I had also asked all of you many times to come to the point
>>>>> >> >> rather
>>>>> >> >> than accusing the others - but my message had no effect on you. I
>>>>> >> >> would suggest that if you cannot provide the required proof,
>>>>> please
>>>>> >> >> take your words back and apologize everyone for the accusations
>>>>> you
>>>>> >> >> made. Promise to never indulge in sullying others on this list.
>>>>> Maybe
>>>>> >> >> your expulsion can be revoked. I know I am sounding like a school
>>>>> >> >> master, but maybe that's the only hope for you.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Kirdar
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <
>>>>> pawan.durani at gmail.com
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> > Dear All,
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain
>>>>> >> exposed.
>>>>> >> >> > The
>>>>> >> >> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like
>>>>> me ,
>>>>> >> >> > Aditya ,
>>>>> >> >> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are
>>>>> >> nothing
>>>>> >> >> > but
>>>>> >> >> > figment of his own imagination.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha ,
>>>>> >> >> > Inder
>>>>> ,
>>>>> >> >> > Shivam
>>>>> >> >> > and Arti have to be.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > Pawan
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  Dear All,
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on
>>>>> our
>>>>> >> list,
>>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>>> >> >> >> am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>>>>> >> >> >> Unfortunately it
>>>>> >> >> >> is not without precedent.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun
>>>>> Kashmir'
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> >> >> 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced
>>>>> with
>>>>> >> >> >> detailed
>>>>> >> >> >> and cross referenced material that does not support their
>>>>> 'case',
>>>>> >> >> >> habitually
>>>>> >> >> >> retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express
>>>>> their
>>>>> >> >> >> desires to
>>>>> >> >> >> 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena
>>>>>  goon
>>>>> >> >> >> allies
>>>>> >> >> >> spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> >> >> university.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in
>>>>> this
>>>>> >> >> >> list,
>>>>> >> >> >> and in the online communications emanating from individuals
>>>>> >> associated
>>>>> >> >> >> with
>>>>> >> >> >> 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>>>>> >> >> >> insinuations
>>>>> >> >> >> emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from
>>>>> Aditya Raj
>>>>> >> >> >> Kaul)
>>>>> >> >> >> that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK
>>>>> gospel or
>>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be
>>>>> doing
>>>>> >> so
>>>>> >> >> >> because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
>>>>> >> masters'
>>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>>> >> >> >> further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their
>>>>> ethical
>>>>> >> >> >> horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of
>>>>> these
>>>>> >> >> >> accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled
>>>>> >> position
>>>>> >> >> >> against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing
>>>>> >> >> >> to
>>>>> >> account
>>>>> >> >> >> for
>>>>> >> >> >> the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of
>>>>> being
>>>>> >> >> >> adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain.
>>>>> So,
>>>>> >> >> >> 'writers'
>>>>> >> >> >> and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a
>>>>> paid
>>>>> >> agent,
>>>>> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was
>>>>> made
>>>>> >> when
>>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay
>>>>> >> >> >> Kak's
>>>>> >> >> >> propoganda
>>>>> >> >> >> agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because
>>>>> >> >> >> they
>>>>> are
>>>>> >> >> >> being
>>>>> >> >> >> paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or
>>>>> their
>>>>> >> >> >> local
>>>>> >> >> >> clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the
>>>>> foreign
>>>>> >> >> >> hand'
>>>>> >> >> >> theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that
>>>>> Indian
>>>>> >> >> >> politicians
>>>>> >> >> >> (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else
>>>>> fails. It
>>>>> >> is
>>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect
>>>>> with
>>>>> >> >> >> reality and
>>>>> >> >> >> dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to
>>>>> hide but
>>>>> >> >> >> fails
>>>>> >> >> >> to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia
>>>>> Jabbar
>>>>> >> on
>>>>> >> >> >> to
>>>>> >> >> >> the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr.
>>>>> Durani
>>>>> >> >> >> keeps,
>>>>> >> >> >> such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots
>>>>> >> >> >> in
>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir'
>>>>> >> >> >> luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to
>>>>> write
>>>>> >> for
>>>>> >> >> >> their
>>>>> >> >> >> cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one
>>>>> that
>>>>> >> >> >> these
>>>>> >> >> >> gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem
>>>>> to be
>>>>> >> >> >> doing
>>>>> >> >> >> precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
>>>>> >> beholden
>>>>> >> >> >> to.
>>>>> >> >> >> Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers
>>>>> admitting
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as
>>>>> their
>>>>> >> own
>>>>> >> >> >> 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> >> >> >> agree
>>>>> >> >> >> with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> In the last two weeks there have been several specific
>>>>> occasions
>>>>> >> when
>>>>> >> >> >> either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK
>>>>> hard
>>>>> >> line
>>>>> >> >> >> nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further,
>>>>> Aarti
>>>>> >> has
>>>>> >> >> >> been
>>>>> >> >> >> accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been
>>>>> accused
>>>>> >> of
>>>>> >> >> >> taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two
>>>>> specific
>>>>> >> >> >> occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been
>>>>> called
>>>>> >> >> >> 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not
>>>>> take
>>>>> >> this
>>>>> >> >> >> casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made
>>>>> casually
>>>>> >> >> >> either.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are
>>>>> >> >> >> writing
>>>>> what
>>>>> >> we
>>>>> >> >> >> are
>>>>> >> >> >> writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or
>>>>> 'terrorist' is
>>>>> >> >> >> greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am
>>>>> willing
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> >> >> take
>>>>> >> >> >> on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my
>>>>> bank
>>>>> >> >> >> accounts
>>>>> >> >> >> suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani
>>>>> should
>>>>> >> think
>>>>> >> >> >> that
>>>>> >> >> >> my political convictions and reflections are available for
>>>>> purchase
>>>>> >> at
>>>>> >> >> >> such
>>>>> >> >> >> low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a
>>>>> hired
>>>>> >> hack
>>>>> >> >> >> who
>>>>> >> >> >> writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and
>>>>> >> leavings
>>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>>> >> >> >> my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No
>>>>> one is
>>>>> >> >> >> paid by
>>>>> >> >> >> the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything.
>>>>> No
>>>>> >> >> >> payments
>>>>> >> >> >> are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of
>>>>> writing
>>>>> >> >> >> either.
>>>>> >> >> >> My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include
>>>>> writing on
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> Reader List either.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list,
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> Sarai
>>>>> >> >> >> programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and
>>>>> >> >> >> my
>>>>> >> >> >> professional
>>>>> >> >> >> standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly,
>>>>> >> especially
>>>>> >> >> >> as
>>>>> >> >> >> this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been
>>>>> willing
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> >> >> ignore
>>>>> >> >> >> the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not
>>>>> >> >> >> been
>>>>> >> thrown
>>>>> >> >> >> in
>>>>> >> >> >> the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two
>>>>> weeks,
>>>>> >> then
>>>>> >> >> >> we
>>>>> >> >> >> are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not
>>>>> think
>>>>> >> >> >> deserves
>>>>> >> >> >> to be ignored or overlooked.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each
>>>>> quote
>>>>> >> >> >> with
>>>>> >> >> >> the subject header and the date of the posting from which it
>>>>> >> >> >> is
>>>>> >> taken,
>>>>> >> >> >> so
>>>>> >> >> >> that they can be traced easily by all list members. My
>>>>> >> >> >> comments
>>>>> >> follow
>>>>> >> >> >> each
>>>>> >> >> >> quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
>>>>> >> capitalized
>>>>> >> >> >> for
>>>>> >> >> >> reasons of emphasis (mine).
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> --------------------------
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 1.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A
>>>>> FOREIGN
>>>>> >> >> >> COUNTRY ,
>>>>> >> >> >> so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>>>>> >> >> >> disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter ,
>>>>> Parlaiment
>>>>> >> case
>>>>> >> >> >> are
>>>>> >> >> >> being followed more closely.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and
>>>>> their
>>>>> >> links
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will
>>>>> >> >> >> come
>>>>> out
>>>>> >> >> >> soon..."
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> >> >> Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort
>>>>> backed
>>>>> >> by
>>>>> >> >> >> a
>>>>> >> >> >> foreign country'
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are
>>>>> being
>>>>> >> >> >> ascertained'
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with
>>>>> >> >> >> details
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> how
>>>>> >> >> >> he
>>>>> >> >> >> can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c)
>>>>> >> >> >> above,
>>>>> or
>>>>> >> >> >> stand
>>>>> >> >> >> charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
>>>>> >> character
>>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>>> >> >> >> reputation of people in a public forum.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> know
>>>>> >> >> >> whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not
>>>>> to
>>>>> >> count
>>>>> >> >> >> as
>>>>> >> >> >> sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 2.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A
>>>>> >> >> >> FULL
>>>>> TIME
>>>>> >> >> >> JOB
>>>>> >> >> >> FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am
>>>>> neither
>>>>> >> >> >> employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the
>>>>> Reader
>>>>> >> List
>>>>> >> >> >> on any
>>>>> >> >> >> subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I
>>>>> want
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> >> >> know
>>>>> >> >> >> what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the
>>>>> Reader
>>>>> >> List
>>>>> >> >> >> is a
>>>>> >> >> >> 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
>>>>> >> substantiate
>>>>> >> >> >> this,
>>>>> >> >> >> it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say
>>>>> what I
>>>>> >> >> >> do, or
>>>>> >> >> >> have the political convictions that I have because I am paid
>>>>> for
>>>>> >> this.
>>>>> >> >> >> In
>>>>> >> >> >> other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot
>>>>> >> >> >> substantiate
>>>>> this
>>>>> >> >> >> charge,
>>>>> >> >> >> I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from
>>>>> this
>>>>> >> list,
>>>>> >> >> >> or
>>>>> >> >> >> allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 3.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>>>> Displacement
>>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID
>>>>> JOB,
>>>>> >> >> >> UNLIKE
>>>>> >> >> >> SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
>>>>> >> support
>>>>> >> >> >> their
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies,
>>>>> from
>>>>> >> >> >> reading
>>>>> >> >> >> this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job'
>>>>> (again
>>>>> >> >> >> because
>>>>> >> >> >> this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have
>>>>> asked
>>>>> >> >> >> immediately
>>>>> >> >> >> before this still hold.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 4.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>>>> Displacement
>>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long
>>>>> >> >> >> mail,
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> >> >> also IT
>>>>> >> >> >> IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write
>>>>> in the
>>>>> >> >> >> way he
>>>>> >> >> >> does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 5.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal
>>>>> Displacement
>>>>> >> >> >> from
>>>>> >> >> >> Kashmir
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS
>>>>> >> >> >> MASTERS
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> we
>>>>> >> >> >> would continue to counter their agenda..."
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts
>>>>> >> >> >> to
>>>>> me
>>>>> >> >> >> "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani
>>>>> have a
>>>>> >> >> >> list of
>>>>> >> >> >> my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is
>>>>> >> >> >> making
>>>>> here
>>>>> >> >> >> that I
>>>>> >> >> >> write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not
>>>>> have
>>>>> >> this
>>>>> >> >> >> proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he
>>>>> should
>>>>> >> be
>>>>> >> >> >> expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 6.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally
>>>>> >> >> >> displaced
>>>>> >> >> >> persons'
>>>>> >> >> >> status
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Pawan Durani)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know
>>>>> what I
>>>>> >> >> >> mean."
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not
>>>>> >> >> >> agree
>>>>> with
>>>>> >> >> >> Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What
>>>>> does
>>>>> >> >> >> "Chinese
>>>>> >> >> >> ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
>>>>> >> Kuomintang
>>>>> >> >> >> Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural
>>>>> preference
>>>>> >> for
>>>>> >> >> >> Chinese cuisine?
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>>>>> >> >> >> referring to
>>>>> >> >> >> a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters,
>>>>> >> specifically
>>>>> >> >> >> those
>>>>> >> >> >> in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> >> >> government
>>>>> >> >> >> of the Peoples Republic of China.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the
>>>>> >> >> >> people
>>>>> he
>>>>> >> >> >> would
>>>>> >> >> >> identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
>>>>> >> critics
>>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>>> >> >> >> Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
>>>>> >> government
>>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>>> >> >> >> the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact
>>>>> gone on
>>>>> >> >> >> record
>>>>> >> >> >> to point out the similarities between the way in which the
>>>>> >> government
>>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>>> >> >> >> mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the
>>>>> Government
>>>>> >> of
>>>>> >> >> >> India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered
>>>>> >> baseless.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 7.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally
>>>>> >> >> >> displaced
>>>>> >> >> >> persons'
>>>>> >> >> >> status
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR
>>>>> MASTERS
>>>>> >> >> >> TONE..."
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's
>>>>> insinuation
>>>>> >> >> >> that
>>>>> >> >> >> anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who
>>>>> act at
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> behest of their masters.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> -----------------
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> MY COMMENT: None
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> __________________________
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day
>>>>> (from
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> date
>>>>> >> >> >> and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable
>>>>> proof
>>>>> >> >> >> for
>>>>> >> >> >> what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>>>>> >> >> >> scurrilous
>>>>> >> >> >> postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one
>>>>> day.
>>>>> >> Or,
>>>>> >> >> >> if
>>>>> >> >> >> the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial,
>>>>> motivated and
>>>>> >> >> >> inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request
>>>>>  the
>>>>> >> >> >> list
>>>>> >> >> >> administrator that both of them be expelled from this list
>>>>> >> >> >> with
>>>>> >> >> >> immediate
>>>>> >> >> >> effect.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been
>>>>> in
>>>>> >> >> >> favour of
>>>>> >> >> >> freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year
>>>>> and a
>>>>> >> >> >> half)
>>>>> >> >> >> the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies
>>>>> (in
>>>>> >> >> >> serious
>>>>> >> >> >> offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with
>>>>> their
>>>>> >> >> >> rubbish
>>>>> >> >> >> time and time again when demands have been made for his
>>>>> expulsion on
>>>>> >> >> >> grounds
>>>>> >> >> >> of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give
>>>>> >> >> >> the
>>>>> >> benefit
>>>>> >> >> >> of
>>>>> >> >> >> the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech'
>>>>> especially
>>>>> >> when
>>>>> >> >> >> I do
>>>>> >> >> >> not agree with them, because I think that even things said in
>>>>> anger
>>>>> >> >> >> need a
>>>>> >> >> >> hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani,
>>>>> Aditya
>>>>> >> Raj
>>>>> >> >> >> Kaul
>>>>> >> >> >> and their allies.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm
>>>>> that
>>>>> >> they
>>>>> >> >> >> can
>>>>> >> >> >> do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>>>>> >> >> >> conjecture.
>>>>> >> >> >> Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
>>>>> >> arguments
>>>>> >> >> >> and
>>>>> >> >> >> better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples
>>>>> >> personal
>>>>> >> >> >> lives
>>>>> >> >> >> and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora,
>>>>> spread
>>>>> >> >> >> poison
>>>>> >> >> >> if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity.
>>>>> There
>>>>> >> have
>>>>> >> >> >> to
>>>>> >> >> >> be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do
>>>>> >> >> >> by
>>>>> a
>>>>> >> >> >> foreign
>>>>> >> >> >> power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I
>>>>> am, or
>>>>> >> I
>>>>> >> >> >> am
>>>>> >> >> >> not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above
>>>>> >> suggests
>>>>> >> >> >> that I
>>>>> >> >> >> am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a
>>>>> >> statement
>>>>> >> >> >> about
>>>>> >> >> >> concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only
>>>>> way to
>>>>> >> >> >> settle
>>>>> >> >> >> this is to demand that the person or persons making the
>>>>> allegation
>>>>> >> >> >> proves
>>>>> >> >> >> what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false
>>>>> witness.
>>>>> >> The
>>>>> >> >> >> reason I am saying this is because there actually are very
>>>>> serious
>>>>> >> >> >> consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a
>>>>> 'foreign
>>>>> >> power'
>>>>> >> >> >> in
>>>>> >> >> >> this country, at a time like what we are going through, today.
>>>>> Such
>>>>> >> >> >> accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is
>>>>> libel
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> >> >> cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection
>>>>> on the
>>>>> >> >> >> grounds
>>>>> >> >> >> of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >> reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to
>>>>> >> >> >> defame
>>>>> a
>>>>> >> >> >> person or
>>>>> >> >> >> persons with the freedom of expression.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
>>>>> >> conceal.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> regards
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >> Shuddha
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> > _________________________________________
>>>>> >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>> >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to
>>>>> >> >> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
>>>>> >> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>>>> >> >> > To unsubscribe:
>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>>> >> >> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> _________________________________________
>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe
> in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

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