[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Mon Nov 10 14:44:33 IST 2008 

And why shouldnt be ASIT be thrown out of this group.

On 11/10/08, Asit asitreds <asitredsalute at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> making unsubstianted allegetions is cheap mudslinging specialised by the
> nazi party and goebbles that is how the hindu fascists spread roumers about
> religeous minorities and organise mediaval progroms rape mureder loot etc
> jingoistic slapstic natinalism leads to fascism a person who takes a
> shameless hindu fascist  line and not ashamed of himself should not be taken
> seriously one should not waste their time in arguing with mediaval communal
> fascists
> asit
>
>  On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Dear Pawan,
>>
>> Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off?
>> Please
>> include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date
>> and
>> time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring
>> to
>> their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used strong
>> language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support
>> right-wing
>> Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to
>> *prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". According
>> to
>> you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I
>> write,
>> as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has
>> recourse to *facts* in this case.
>>
>> This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our
>> writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole new
>> terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a
>> matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence
>> that,
>> unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against
>> people, I am far more circumspect about what I write.
>>
>> So please, tell me where I have said this about you.
>>
>> regards
>> Aarti
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Dear All,
>> >
>> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed.
>> The
>> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>> >
>> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me ,
>> Aditya
>> > ,
>> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>> >
>> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing
>> but
>> > figment of his own imagination.
>> >
>> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder ,
>> Shivam
>> > and Arti have to be.
>> >
>> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>> >
>> > Pawan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >  Dear All,
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our
>> list,
>> > and
>> > > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>> Unfortunately
>> > it
>> > > is not without precedent.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and
>> > > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with
>> > detailed
>> > > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case',
>> > habitually
>> > > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their
>> desires
>> > to
>> > > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon
>> > allies
>> > > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the
>> > > university.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this
>> list,
>> > > and in the online communications emanating from individuals associated
>> > with
>> > > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>> insinuations
>> > > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj
>> > Kaul)
>> > > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or
>> the
>> > > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing
>> so
>> > > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign masters'
>> > and
>> > > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical
>> > > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these
>> > > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position
>> > > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
>> account
>> > for
>> > > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being
>> > > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So,
>> > 'writers'
>> > > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid
>> agent,
>> > > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made
>> when
>> > the
>> > > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
>> > propoganda
>> > > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are
>> being
>> > > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their
>> local
>> > > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign
>> hand'
>> > > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
>> > politicians
>> > > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It is
>> > the
>> > > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with
>> reality
>> > and
>> > > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but
>> > fails
>> > > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on
>> to
>> > > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani
>> keeps,
>> > > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
>> Kashmir'
>> > > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write for
>> > their
>> > > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that
>> these
>> > > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be
>> > doing
>> > > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
>> beholden
>> > to.
>> > > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to
>> the
>> > > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their
>> own
>> > > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't
>> agree
>> > > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when
>> > > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line
>> > > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has
>> > been
>> > > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused
>> of
>> > > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific
>> > > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called
>> > > 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this
>> > > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually
>> > > either.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what
>> we
>> > are
>> > > writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is
>> > > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to
>> > take
>> > > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank
>> accounts
>> > > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should
>> think
>> > that
>> > > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase at
>> > such
>> > > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired
>> hack
>> > who
>> > > writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and leavings
>> > from
>> > > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is
>> paid
>> > by
>> > > the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No
>> > payments
>> > > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing
>> > either.
>> > > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on
>> the
>> > > Reader List either.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the
>> > Sarai
>> > > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>> > professional
>> > > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially
>> as
>> > > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to
>> > ignore
>> > > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been thrown
>> in
>> > > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks, then
>> we
>> > > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think
>> > deserves
>> > > to be ignored or overlooked.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote
>> with
>> > > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is taken,
>> so
>> > > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments follow
>> > each
>> > > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
>> capitalized
>> > for
>> > > reasons of emphasis (mine).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --------------------------
>> > >
>> > > 1.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> > >
>> > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
>> COUNTRY
>> > ,
>> > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>> > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case
>> are
>> > > being followed more closely.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their
>> links
>> > >
>> > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out
>> > > soon..."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>> > >
>> > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the
>> > > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed
>> by a
>> > > foreign country'
>> > >
>> > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being
>> > > ascertained'
>> > >
>> > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of how
>> he
>> > > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or
>> stand
>> > > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
>> character
>> > and
>> > > reputation of people in a public forum.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know
>> > > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to count
>> as
>> > > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 2.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> > >
>> > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME
>> JOB
>> > > FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither
>> > > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List
>> on
>> > any
>> > > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to
>> > know
>> > > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader
>> List
>> > is a
>> > > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot substantiate
>> > this,
>> > > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I
>> do,
>> > or
>> > > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for this.
>> In
>> > > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this
>> > charge,
>> > > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this
>> list,
>> > or
>> > > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 3.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> from
>> > > Kashmir
>> > >
>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB,
>> > UNLIKE
>> > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and support
>> > their
>> > >
>> > > cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from
>> > reading
>> > > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again
>> because
>> > > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
>> > immediately
>> > > before this still hold.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 4.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> from
>> > > Kashmir
>> > >
>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and
>> also
>> > IT
>> > > IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the
>> way
>> > he
>> > > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 5.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>> from
>> > > Kashmir
>> > >
>> > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and we
>> > > would continue to counter their agenda..."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me
>> > > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a
>> list
>> > of
>> > > my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here
>> that
>> > I
>> > > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have
>> this
>> > > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should be
>> > > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 6.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> persons'
>> > > status
>> > >
>> > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I
>> > mean."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with
>> > > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does
>> > "Chinese
>> > > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism, Kuomintang
>> > > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference for
>> > > Chinese cuisine?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>> referring
>> > to
>> > > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically
>> > those
>> > > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
>> > government
>> > > of the Peoples Republic of China.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he
>> would
>> > > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal critics
>> of
>> > > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the government
>> of
>> > > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on
>> > record
>> > > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government
>> of
>> > > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government
>> of
>> > > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 7.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>> persons'
>> > > status
>> > >
>> > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS
>> > > TONE..."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation
>> that
>> > > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at
>> the
>> > > behest of their masters.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----------------
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>> > >
>> > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > MY COMMENT: None
>> > >
>> > > __________________________
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from the
>> > date
>> > > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof
>> for
>> > > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>> scurrilous
>> > > postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or,
>> if
>> > > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and
>> > > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the
>> list
>> > > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
>> immediate
>> > > effect.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in
>> favour
>> > of
>> > > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a
>> > half)
>> > > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in
>> > serious
>> > > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their
>> rubbish
>> > > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on
>> > grounds
>> > > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
>> benefit
>> > of
>> > > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially when
>> I
>> > do
>> > > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger
>> need
>> > a
>> > > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya Raj
>> > Kaul
>> > > and their allies.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that
>> they
>> > can
>> > > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>> conjecture.
>> > > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by arguments
>> > and
>> > > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal
>> > lives
>> > > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread
>> > poison
>> > > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There
>> have
>> > to
>> > > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a
>> foreign
>> > > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or I
>> am
>> > > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests
>> > that I
>> > > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement
>> > about
>> > > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to
>> > settle
>> > > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation
>> proves
>> > > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness. The
>> > > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious
>> > > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign
>> power'
>> > in
>> > > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such
>> > > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel
>> and
>> > > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the
>> > grounds
>> > > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and the
>> > > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a
>> person
>> > or
>> > > persons with the freedom of expression.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to conceal.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > regards
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Shuddha
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > _________________________________________
>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> > subscribe in the subject header.
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>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> >
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
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>>
>
>

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