[Reader-list] About Accusations on this List

Asit asitreds asitredsalute at gmail.com
Mon Nov 10 14:47:19 IST 2008 

fascism at full play tomorrow they will ask us not to breathe back to
mediaval barbarism
asit

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:

> And why shouldnt be ASIT be thrown out of this group.
>
>
> On 11/10/08, Asit asitreds <asitredsalute at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> making unsubstianted allegetions is cheap mudslinging specialised by the
>> nazi party and goebbles that is how the hindu fascists spread roumers about
>> religeous minorities and organise mediaval progroms rape mureder loot etc
>> jingoistic slapstic natinalism leads to fascism a person who takes a
>> shameless hindu fascist  line and not ashamed of himself should not be taken
>> seriously one should not waste their time in arguing with mediaval communal
>> fascists
>> asit
>>
>>  On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Pawan,
>>>
>>> Please enlighten us regarding what I or Shuddha have accused you off?
>>> Please
>>> include, as Shuddha has done, quotes from what I have written, the date
>>> and
>>> time. Note, this is not a question of calling someone names or referring
>>> to
>>> their ideaological/political beliefs. Because I am sure I have used
>>> strong
>>> language, as have you. I do not need to *prove* that you support
>>> right-wing
>>> Hindu fascists, that is evident from your writing. As you do not need to
>>> *prove* that I, according to you, support "Islamic terrorists". According
>>> to
>>> you, what I write reflects that. I can contest your reading of what I
>>> write,
>>> as you can contest my charecterisation of you, but neither of us has
>>> recourse to *facts* in this case.
>>>
>>> This is a question of you explicitly saying that we are *paid* for our
>>> writings and views by someone else. Saying that takes it into a whole new
>>> terrain where to make such a charge you need to prove it. This is not a
>>> matter of opinion, yours or mine. And I can say with utter confidence
>>> that,
>>> unlike you who thinks nothing of hurling unsubstantiated charges against
>>> people, I am far more circumspect about what I write.
>>>
>>> So please, tell me where I have said this about you.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> Aarti
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dear All,
>>> >
>>> > For those who have championed "how we celebrate Freedom,remain exposed.
>>> The
>>> > freedom of others to express their thoughts.
>>> >
>>> > How come Shuddha forgets how he has himsef accused others like me ,
>>> Aditya
>>> > ,
>>> > roots in Kashmir , Panun Kashmir , BJP and RSS etc etc.
>>> >
>>> > His talk on Kashmir , accusations against Roots in Kashmir are nothing
>>> but
>>> > figment of his own imagination.
>>> >
>>> > If I have to be removed from the list , so would Shuddha , Inder ,
>>> Shivam
>>> > and Arti have to be.
>>> >
>>> > Let the Moderators remove all , if that is what is required.
>>> >
>>> > Pawan
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 11/9/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >  Dear All,
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I have noticed a curious and remarkable phenomenon of late on our
>>> list,
>>> > and
>>> > > am wondering whether or not any of you have noticed it too.
>>> Unfortunately
>>> > it
>>> > > is not without precedent.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > We know well by now that when those who speak for 'Panun Kashmir' and
>>> > > 'Roots in Kashmir' run out of arguments, especially when faced with
>>> > detailed
>>> > > and cross referenced material that does not support their 'case',
>>> > habitually
>>> > > retort with abuse, invective and insinuation. They express their
>>> desires
>>> > to
>>> > > 'spit' on people's faces, exactly as their ABVP / Sri Ram Sena  goon
>>> > allies
>>> > > spit on the faces of university lecturers invited to speak at the
>>> > > university.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Of late, there has been another kind of 'spitting' going on in this
>>> list,
>>> > > and in the online communications emanating from individuals
>>> associated
>>> > with
>>> > > 'Panun Kashmir' and 'Roots in Kashmir'.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >  I am speaking about a curious pattern of a specific kind of
>>> insinuations
>>> > > emanating mainly from Pawan Durani (but also of late from Aditya Raj
>>> > Kaul)
>>> > > that suggest that whosoever does not agree with the PK/RIK gospel or
>>> the
>>> > > broad hardline Indian nationalist position on anything must be doing
>>> so
>>> > > because they are actively doing the bidding of their 'foreign
>>> masters'
>>> > and
>>> > > further, because they are being 'paid' to do so. Since their ethical
>>> > > horizons are severely limited and compromised, the makers of these
>>> > > accusations cannot imagine that some of us take a principled position
>>> > > against the things that they hold sacrosant. And so, failing to
>>> account
>>> > for
>>> > > the ethical basis of our opposition, they leap to accuse us of being
>>> > > adversarial purely for the sake of private and pecuniary gain. So,
>>> > 'writers'
>>> > > and journalists are paid by their terrorist masters, I am a paid
>>> agent,
>>> > > Sanjay Kak was paid by Yasin Malik (this is a charge that was made
>>> when
>>> > the
>>> > > debate on Jashn-e-Azadi began) and Prakash Ray is 'Sanjay Kak's
>>> > propoganda
>>> > > agent on the payroll of Yasin Malik' , and so on.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > This allegation that ones critics are ones critics because they are
>>> being
>>> > > paid to be critics and that too by devious foreign powers or their
>>> local
>>> > > clients is the time tested 'foreign hand' and 'agent of the foreign
>>> hand'
>>> > > theory that is the Brahmastra (secret lethal weapon) that Indian
>>> > politicians
>>> > > (and not only Indian politicians) resort to when all else fails. It
>>> is
>>> > the
>>> > > true hallmark of a failure of reason, a profound disconnect with
>>> reality
>>> > and
>>> > > dismal poverty of the political imagination. It attempts to hide but
>>> > fails
>>> > > to conceal a rancid, rabid, raucous politics.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Of course, as is evident from the emails forwarded by Sonia Jabbar on
>>> to
>>> > > the list recently, some of the illustrious company that Mr. Durani
>>> keeps,
>>> > > such as the gentleman known as Ashish Zutshi, another 'Roots in
>>> Kashmir'
>>> > > luminary, himself offered her a 'reasonable sum of money' to write
>>> for
>>> > their
>>> > > cause. Perhaps the sleazy language of bribery is the only one that
>>> these
>>> > > gentlemen understand, because at least in this case, they seem to be
>>> > doing
>>> > > precisely what (offering a bribe) that they accuse us of being
>>> beholden
>>> > to.
>>> > > Rather, this is a case of one kind of influence peddlers admitting to
>>> the
>>> > > fact that they lament not having their current adversaries as their
>>> own
>>> > > 'paid agents'. Why else would they offer to pay someone who doesn't
>>> agree
>>> > > with them a 'reasonable amount' to change her mind.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > In the last two weeks there have been several specific occasions when
>>> > > either I, or someone broadly willing to question the PK/RIK hard line
>>> > > nationalist gospel has been called a paid 'agent'. Further, Aarti has
>>> > been
>>> > > accused of selling herself 'cheaply' and Sanjay Kak has been accused
>>> of
>>> > > taking money from Yasin Malik. And there have also been two specific
>>> > > occasions when people (Aman and me, by implication) have been called
>>> > > 'puppets of the Chinese'.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Now this is something that I take quite seriously. I do not take this
>>> > > casually, as I do not think that these accusations are made casually
>>> > > either.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > The allegations suggest, basically, that some of us are writing what
>>> we
>>> > are
>>> > > writing on this list because some 'foreign power'  or 'terrorist' is
>>> > > greasing our palms. Since I am included in this list, I am willing to
>>> > take
>>> > > on this matter personally. Notwithstanding the fact that my bank
>>> accounts
>>> > > suggest otherwise, I am insulted to know that Pawan Durani should
>>> think
>>> > that
>>> > > my political convictions and reflections are available for purchase
>>> at
>>> > such
>>> > > low rates in the market, or, more fundamentally, that I am a hired
>>> hack
>>> > who
>>> > > writes not out of conviction but  for the sake of crumbs and leavings
>>> > from
>>> > > my 'masters' table. The Reader List is a space of freedom. No one is
>>> paid
>>> > by
>>> > > the hosts  or the administrator of the list to write anything. No
>>> > payments
>>> > > are sought from the hosts or administrator for any kind of writing
>>> > either.
>>> > > My professional responsibilities at Sarai do not include writing on
>>> the
>>> > > Reader List either.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I consider this an insult to the community of the reader list, to the
>>> > Sarai
>>> > > programme at CSDS and a serious affront to my reputation and my
>>> > professional
>>> > > standing. I do not wish to ignore this or take it lightly, especially
>>> as
>>> > > this has been made on a very public forum. I may have been willing to
>>> > ignore
>>> > > the odd barb of this nature (and it is not that it has not been
>>> thrown in
>>> > > the past) but when we get seven defamatory missives in two weeks,
>>> then we
>>> > > are looking at a serious and determined pattern that I do not think
>>> > deserves
>>> > > to be ignored or overlooked.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Let's look at each one of these instances. I have tagged each quote
>>> with
>>> > > the subject header and the date of the posting from which it is
>>> taken, so
>>> > > that they can be traced easily by all list members. My comments
>>> follow
>>> > each
>>> > > quotation. Certain portions within each quotation have been
>>> capitalized
>>> > for
>>> > > reasons of emphasis (mine).
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > --------------------------
>>> > >
>>> > > 1.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: 21 October 2008 6:21:56 PM GMT+05:30
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "...Notwithsatnding a well CALCULATED EFFORT BACKED BY A FOREIGN
>>> COUNTRY
>>> > ,
>>> > > so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>>> > > disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case
>>> are
>>> > > being followed more closely.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their
>>> links
>>> > >
>>> > > ascertained. Hoping the truth and the DETAILS PAYOUTS will come out
>>> > > soon..."
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: Pawan Durani claims to know the following -
>>> > >
>>> > > (a) that those raising questions about the Jamia Encounter and the
>>> > > Parliament Attack case are party to a 'well calculated effort backed
>>> by a
>>> > > foreign country'
>>> > >
>>> > > (b) that they are 'under a close scanner', their 'links are being
>>> > > ascertained'
>>> > >
>>> > > (c) that the 'details' of 'payouts' will come out soon...
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > In all fairness, either he should furnish the list with details of
>>> how he
>>> > > can substantiate (a - which foreign country?), (b) & (c) above, or
>>> stand
>>> > > charged of making baseless allegations designed to malign the
>>> character
>>> > and
>>> > > reputation of people in a public forum.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > In the event that he cannot prove (a), (b) & (c) I would like to know
>>> > > whether or not list members believe that this alone ought not to
>>> count as
>>> > > sufficient reason for his expulsion from the list ?
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > 2.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: 25 October 2008 3:53:21 PM GMT+05:30
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "...I know I am not a master of mixing words NOR IS THIS A FULL TIME
>>> JOB
>>> > > FOR ME  FOR WHICH I GET PAID FOR..." (sic)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: This is specifically addressed to me. Since I am neither
>>> > > employed nor monetarily compensated to write posts on the Reader List
>>> on
>>> > any
>>> > > subject whatsoever, and do so entierly of my own free will, I want to
>>> > know
>>> > > what Pawan Durani means when he implies that writing on the Reader
>>> List
>>> > is a
>>> > > 'full time job for which I get paid'. Again, if he cannot
>>> substantiate
>>> > this,
>>> > > it will amount to defamation because it will imply that I say what I
>>> do,
>>> > or
>>> > > have the political convictions that I have because I am paid for
>>> this. In
>>> > > other words, that I am a 'mercenary'. If he cannot substantiate this
>>> > charge,
>>> > > I would again like to ask whether he should be expelled from this
>>> list,
>>> > or
>>> > > allowed to continue to make allegations without basis?
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > 3.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>>> from
>>> > > Kashmir
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 2:11:09 PM GMT+05:30
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "...Mind it , we are fighting for ourselves and IT IS A UNPAID JOB,
>>> > UNLIKE
>>> > > SOME SURROGATES WHO ACT PROXY for secessionists in Kashmir and
>>> support
>>> > their
>>> > >
>>> > > cause by trying to create an opinion..."
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: If what he is doing is an 'unpaid job' it implies, from
>>> > reading
>>> > > this and the previous quote, that I am doing a 'paid job' (again
>>> because
>>> > > this is addressed to me). Once again, the questions I have asked
>>> > immediately
>>> > > before this still hold.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > 4.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>>> from
>>> > > Kashmir
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: 1 November 2008 5:17:49 PM GMT+05:30
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "...I dont have time like Shuddha for writing such a long mail, and
>>> also
>>> > IT
>>> > > IS NOT MY PAID JOB."
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: Implication - it is Shuddha's "paid job" to write in the
>>> way
>>> > he
>>> > > does. See my previous two comments above. Same question holds
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > 5.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Thinking Through Figures on Internal Displacement
>>> from
>>> > > Kashmir
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: 2 November 2008 12:37:24 PM GMT+05:30
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "We dont need him or his lip service. LET HIM SERVE HIS MASTERS and
>>> we
>>> > > would continue to counter their agenda..."
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: So providing a detailed set of arguments amounts to me
>>> > > "serving" my "masters". Who are these "masters"? Does Durani have a
>>> list
>>> > of
>>> > > my "masters" or  any proof for the allegation that he is making here
>>> that
>>> > I
>>> > > write on the list at the bidding of "masters"? If he does not have
>>> this
>>> > > proof, then again, I am constrained to ask whether or not he should
>>> be
>>> > > expelled from the list for reasons of defamation.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > 6.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>>> persons'
>>> > > status
>>> > >
>>> > > Date: 3 November 2008 1:33:03 PM GMT+05:30
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Pawan Durani)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "...At least WE ARE NOT PUPPETS OF CHINESE IDEOLOGY. You know what I
>>> > mean."
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: The implication here is that those who do not agree with
>>> > > Pawan's position are the puppets of "Chinese ideology"? What does
>>> > "Chinese
>>> > > ideology" mean? Does it mean, Confucianism, Taoism, Maoism,
>>> Kuomintang
>>> > > Thought, Dengism, Falun Gong tendencies or an unnatural preference
>>> for
>>> > > Chinese cuisine?
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I take it (though, who knows, I could be wrong)  that Pawan is
>>> referring
>>> > to
>>> > > a willingness to act at the behest of 'Chinese' masters, specifically
>>> > those
>>> > > in positions of power within the Chinese Communist Party and the
>>> > government
>>> > > of the Peoples Republic of China.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > If so, how would he explain the fact that several of the people he
>>> would
>>> > > identify as his adversaries (me, for instance) have been vocal
>>> critics of
>>> > > Maoism (all varieties), the Chinese Communist Party and the
>>> government of
>>> > > the Peoples Republic of China on this list. We have in fact gone on
>>> > record
>>> > > to point out the similarities between the way in which the government
>>> of
>>> > > mainland China deals with Tibet, and the way in which the Government
>>> of
>>> > > India deals with the occupation that it undertakes in Kashmir.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > In the light of this fact, the above allegation is rendered baseless.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > 7.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits demand 'internally displaced
>>> persons'
>>> > > status
>>> > >
>>> > > 3 November 2008 1:42:34 PM GMT+05:30
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "It has become so usual now to SEE THESE PUPPETS SPEAK THEIR MASTERS
>>> > > TONE..."
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: Here, Aditya Raj Kaul echoes Pawan Durani's insinuation
>>> that
>>> > > anyone who questions them (him and Durani) are "puppets" who act at
>>> the
>>> > > behest of their masters.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -----------------
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >  Re: [Reader-list] SIMI Activists found with SAR Geelani CDs
>>> > >
>>> > > 9 November 2008 14:14:12 IST 2008
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > (from Aditya Raj Kaul)
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > "dear SANJAY KAK'S PROPOGANDA AGENT ON PAYROLLS OF YASIN MALIK
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > MY COMMENT: None
>>> > >
>>> > > __________________________
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I am giving Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul exactly one day (from
>>> the
>>> > date
>>> > > and time of this posting) to furnish detailed, substantiatable proof
>>> for
>>> > > what I consider to be the allegations in their defamatory and
>>> scurrilous
>>> > > postings aimed at me and others on this list.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > If they are not able to furnish these proofs within this one day. Or,
>>> if
>>> > > the proofs they furnish are found to be insubstantial, motivated and
>>> > > inadequate to the charges that they make, then I would request  the
>>> list
>>> > > administrator that both of them be expelled from this list with
>>> immediate
>>> > > effect.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Let me clarify one thing in closing. I am and have always been in
>>> favour
>>> > of
>>> > > freedom of expression. And I have defended (over the last year and a
>>> > half)
>>> > > the right of Pawan Durani and Aditya Raj Kaul and their allies (in
>>> > serious
>>> > > offline discussions) to continue to torment this list with their
>>> rubbish
>>> > > time and time again when demands have been made for his expulsion on
>>> > grounds
>>> > > of 'hate speech'. I am willing to go the extra mile to give the
>>> benefit
>>> > of
>>> > > the doubt when someone stands accused of 'hate speech' especially
>>> when I
>>> > do
>>> > > not agree with them, because I think that even things said in anger
>>> need
>>> > a
>>> > > hearing. And I have gone that extra mile with Pawan Durani, Aditya
>>> Raj
>>> > Kaul
>>> > > and their allies.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > But defamation and libel are offenses, not opinions. The harm that
>>> they
>>> > can
>>> > > do is objectively verifiable, not a matter of speculation or
>>> conjecture.
>>> > > Opinions, no matter how vile they may be can be countered by
>>> arguments
>>> > and
>>> > > better formulated opinions. But the lies that attack peoples personal
>>> > lives
>>> > > and conduct, especially when they are uttered on public fora, spread
>>> > poison
>>> > > if they are not dealt with exemplary and immediate severity. There
>>> have
>>> > to
>>> > > be consequences for such conduct, no matter who does it.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > If someone says that I am paid to speak in the way that I do by a
>>> foreign
>>> > > power, then there is no ambiguity in this statement. EIther I am, or
>>> I am
>>> > > not. I know I am not. The mails that I am referring to above suggests
>>> > that I
>>> > > am, and several others on the list are. And since this is a statement
>>> > about
>>> > > concrete people, not about some abstractions . then the only way to
>>> > settle
>>> > > this is to demand that the person or persons making the allegation
>>> proves
>>> > > what they say, or faces the consequences of bearing false witness.
>>> The
>>> > > reason I am saying this is because there actually are very serious
>>> > > consequences to being thought of as a 'paid' agent of a 'foreign
>>> power'
>>> > in
>>> > > this country, at a time like what we are going through, today. Such
>>> > > accusations and labels cannot and must not be taken lightly.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Either he is lying, or I am. And an untruth about a person is libel
>>> and
>>> > > cannot by any stretch of imagination be subject to protection on the
>>> > grounds
>>> > > of freedom of expression. This forum would be betraying itself and
>>> the
>>> > > reasons why it was founded if it confuses the license to defame a
>>> person
>>> > or
>>> > > persons with the freedom of expression.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. I have nothing to
>>> conceal.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > regards
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Shuddha
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > _________________________________________
>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>> >
>>> _________________________________________
>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>>>
>>
>>
>

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