[Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal Abuse...

gowhar fazli gowharfazili at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 10 16:01:10 IST 2008 

Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include
Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has bettered
mine.  I thank him for his work of genius.  In fact, between
the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they
choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality
depending on where they come from, and take moral positions.
 

To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so
close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5"
figure and replace it with "scores of people",
"more than usual or acceptable death toll which has
become a norm" or "extraordinary number"...
For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less,
is equally criminal (notice he puts the word
'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may
not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is
innocent!)  Killing a couple of hundred more or less does
not make a very big difference to the immorality of shooting
on crowds to force them indoors. 

The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat
conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim)
and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect
identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. 
But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am
glad they are both physically safe... for now.


> --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim
> <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to
> spitting and verbal Abuse...
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM
> > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that is
> the
> > question:  A
> > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and Kshmendra
> ---- (
> > keeping in
> > mind that the facts are  stranger than fiction, but
> the 
> > reverse can
> > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet
> theirs
> > only  )
> > 
> > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about exact
> > statistics of
> > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in
> Kashmir.
> > Even Panun
> > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir, since
> late
> > nineties,
> > should have given a breather to India to bring about a
> > serious
> > dialogue.  But what do they do?
> > 
> >  Kshmendra:   I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a young
> > woman
> > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats she is
> > receiving...
> > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I know
> of
> > so many of
> > them who have used and subverted democratic
> institutions
> > for their own
> > interest.
> > 
> >  Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though I
> agree in
> > part with yours.
> > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a daily
> > basis since
> > Amarnath land row.
> > 
> > (  I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and  Cosmic SHE will be
> > talking to each
> > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in kashmir 
> ?)
> > 
> > Kshmendra : You filthy lair.
> > 
> > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine.
> > 
> > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents' have
> died
> > in the 'valley'
> > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider
> any
> > such death as
> > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized
> society. 
> > But yours,
> > is one more 'theatrical device' in the
> 'theatre
> > of false propaganda.
> > 
> > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom you
> do
> > not like or
> > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a
> > 'moron'
> > 
> > Kshmendra  : for sure you are a "moron' and a
> > "filthy liar" and fully
> > deserving of what you call 'abuse'.
> > 
> >  Gowhar :    'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how
> Kashmiris
> > should behave
> > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership has to
> > suite India's
> > self-image its foreign policy and morality.'  that
> the
> > basic
> > conditions for such an exercise and the atmosphere to
> > engender such a
> > collectively have been systematically removed from
> Kashmir;
> >  Just to
> > keep people  from demonstrating for Azadi or
> protesting
> > against
> > elections…
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > to be continued....
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
> > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Dear Gowhar Fazili
> > >
> > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is
> something
> > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in 'aside'
> > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of
> > information. In this case your 'filthy lie'
> of:
> > >
> > >  """""" The valley
> has
> > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since
> Amarnath
> > land row."""""""
> > >
> > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2)
> > >
> > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy lie'
> > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might be
> it's
> > author, whether in a factual representation or in a
> > fictional one.
> > >
> > > If you are not the protagonist "HE" in
> your
> > conversation piece then you should not be miffed about
> any
> > comments directed at "HIM".
> > >
> > > Incidentally the word "moron" to
> describe
> > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing) is a
> word
> > that I have not introduced into this List to describe
> > someone like you.
> > >
> > > If it is you who is the "HE" in your
> > conversation piece then for sure you are a
> "moron'
> > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving of
> what
> > you call 'abuse'.
> > >
> > > You whine that I should have placed 'counter
> > figures' of what you think would be "a dozen
> more
> > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine
> considering
> > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated) realistic
> > 'death count' and the 'figures'
> suggested by
> > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count of 2
> to
> > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row.
> There, one
> > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot.
> > >
> > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started
> sometime
> > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since it
> started.
> > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to 5', 
> the
> > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600. Do
> you see
> > what an 'idiot' you are?
> > >
> > > In this particular case let me distort the
> application
> > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The "Latin
> legal
> > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui
> negat
> > (the
> > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who
> > denies)" In this case your assertion of 
> > """""" The valley has
> seen two
> > to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath
> land
> > row."""""""
> > >
> > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to place
> me
> > into a compartment for which you have the identifying
> > construct of "abused as a child";
> "severe
> > mental imbalance"; "(needing) psychological
> > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are
> impure
> > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as to
> > hate"; "has Muslims as the current objects
> of hate
> > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as special
> > targets for abuse".
> > >
> > > This is one more 'theatrical device' in
> the
> > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If questioned
> about
> > "filthy lies" for which you have no
> justifiable,
> > credible and believable response you attack the
> questioner
> > and attribute such characteristics to him/her that
> will
> > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with suspicion and
> shift
> > focus from your own 'filthy lie'.
> > >
> > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me can
> only
> > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not excuse
> your
> > "filthy lie"
> > >
> > > Kshmendra
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli
> > <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more to
> spitting
> > and verbal Abuse...
> > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM
> > >
> > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... 
> > Kshmendra's use of this language
> > > against me on the readers list suggests he might
> have
> > been abused as a child.
> > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being
> abused as
> > a child can create severe
> > > mental imbalances and over reactions among
> people. It
> > might be high time for
> > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological help
> > because it has bearing on his
> > > quality of life and of those around him.
> > >
> > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the
> 'HE'
> > in the dialogue I
> > > posted... in which case he could have placed his
> > counter figures (say a couple
> > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and decently
> asked
> > for the source....There  was
> > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive.
> > >
> > > The other more profound explanation could be that
> it
> > forms part of his
> > > socialisation and culture.  Brahmin's have
> long
> > held it to be their right to
> > > abuse those whom they consider impure and
> inferior. 
> > So in this light, cases
> > > like spitting on someone whom you do not like or
> > calling somebody a 'filthy
> > > liar' or a 'moron'  might be an
> attempt to
> > reclaim that right and
> > > culture against the current community they hate,
> or to
> > use a turn of phrase,
> > > want to Dalitize...  Muslims appear to be the
> current
> > objects of hate and insult
> > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most
> assertive
> > among them, they happen to
> > > be the special targets of abuse.
> > >
> > > The dialogue i had posted was not about exact
> > statistics of the dead, but two
> > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir... Hers,
> that
> > the democratic exercise
> > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the
> collective
> > good... His, that the
> > > basic conditions for such an exercise and the
> > atmosphere to engender such a
> > > collectivity have been systematically removed
> Kashmir.
> > >
> > > Is it strange that he did not have any opinion on
> > this?
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul
> > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul
> > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A
> filthy
> > lie by Gowhar Fazli.
> > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > <reader-list at sarai.net>,
> > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com
> > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15 PM
> > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli
> > >>
> > >> The protagonist "HE" in the
> conversation
> > you have
> > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself are
> the
> > >> "HE" then you are a filthy liar.
> > >>
> > >> I refer to the statement:
> > >>
> > >>  """""" The
> valley
> > has seen
> > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis
> since
> > Amarnath land
> > >>
> row."""""""
> > >>
> > >> It is true that 'innocents' have died
> in
> > the
> > >> 'valley' since the start of the
> Amarnath
> > Land Row. I
> > >> consider any such death as sad, unfortunate
> and
> > unacceptable
> > >> for a civilized society. I consider even the
> > deaths of
> > >> those who have consciously chosen the path of
> > violence to
> > >> further their agenda as being sad,
> unfortunate,
> > regretable
> > >> and avoidable.
> > >>
> > >> But that does not mean that 'morons'
> like
> > >> you should have the licence to float blatant
> lies
> > on this
> > >> List or any other place, perhaps with the
> smug
> > >> thought that you will not be questioned.
> > >>
> > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you a
> > 'filthy
> > >> liar'?
> > >>
> > >>  I invite you to evidence the statement of 2
> to 5
> > deaths
> > >> daily in the 'valley' since the start
> of
> > the
> > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any
> credible
> > news source
> > >> of your choice. A credible  news source would
> for
> > sure have
> > >> a presence on the Web where your statement
> can be
> > confirmed
> > >> as being 'truthful' or as being a
> > 'filthy
> > >> lie' as I have called it.
> > >>
> > >> Kshmendra
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli
> > >> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> From: gowhar fazli
> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah Muah!
> > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > >> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17 PM
> > >>
> > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! 
> (Commenting
> > on my
> > >> status of OBAH MUAH!)
> > >>
> > >> HE: :)
> > >>
> > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance and
> > bollywud magic
> > >> that day on tv
> > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and
> > kisses....wah!!!
> > >>
> > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one in
> > Kashmir n one
> > >> in US!
> > >>
> > >> SHE: How can there be any comparison.....look
> at
> > the
> > >> conduct of political
> > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for each
> > other....more
> > >> to blame is also
> > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream
> > India......in fact in
> > >> south Asia, the
> > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote bank
> and
> > slur....we
> > >> still have to grow as
> > >> a democracy...remember we are only 60..as
> compared
> > to US
> > >> 200. As far as Kashmir
> > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what exactly
> they
> > blame
> > >> the Indian govt of
> > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a
> young
> > woman
> > >> contesting from
> > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is
> > receiving... what
> > >> does the Hurriyat want
> > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of them
> who
> > have used
> > >> and subverted
> > >> democratic institutions for their own
> interest. U
> > know the
> > >> major draw back in
> > >> our part of the world is that we do not have
> the
> > courage
> > >> for self correctness,
> > >> self introspection.....USA did that....they
> have
> > brought in
> > >> change...I admire
> > >> that...
> > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen....
> > >>
> > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this though I
> agree
> > in part
> > >> with yours
> > >>
> > >> SHE: there are always many takes to Kashmir
> > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a call
> for
> > Jamia
> > >> Chalo for killing of 5
> > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947.....
> > >>
> > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people
> protested
> > in Kashmir
> > >> for Azadi and were
> > >> forced indoors by shooting on the protests...
> > Kashmir is in
> > >> no mood for election
> > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed...
> without
> > any
> > >> negotiation with the
> > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the
> government
> > can offer
> > >> is to impose a
> > >> conventional election to meet its deadline to
> show
> > that all
> > >> is well in Kashmir.
> > >> It is not.
> > >>   I think the bigger problem is this not the
> > morality of
> > >> our local politicians.
> > >> the conditions we live in can only produce
> the
> > kind of
> > >> politicians we presently
> > >> have.
> > >>  USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush for
> eight
> > years
> > >> before it was time for
> > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi decides
> how
> > Kashmiris
> > >> should behave and who
> > >> should be in power.
> > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite India's
> > self-image its
> > >> foreign policy and
> > >> morality.
> > >>
> > >> SHE:  you forget that people who are standing
> for
> > elections
> > >> ( record number
> > >> filled in nomination...to counter each other
> ,
> > their party
> > >> workers shouting anti
> > >> India slogans )  or people wanting to vote
> are
> > also
> > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun
> > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though for
> > different
> > >> reasons. They are
> > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who want
> to
> > vote are
> > >> Kashmiris too...so are
> > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are
> Ladhakis ,
> > Poocnhis,
> > >> etc who want to
> > >> vote...no one is shying away from resolving
> the
> > >> issue...spell out the  agenda
> > >> and ideology and let people decide, why
> intimidate
> > them,
> > >> kill them...why instill
> > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say
> they..I
> > mean all
> > >> those, religious
> > >> groups, media, separatist so called
> > nationalist.... who
> > >> want to build their own
> > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu or
> anywhere
> > >> else...as I said we need to
> > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues is
> bit
> > >> difficult...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> HE: I didn't forget them... Ladakhis,
> Pandits,
> > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who
> > >> want to vote for various reasons...  Yet 
> daily
> > killing to
> > >> keep people to keep
> > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or
> protesting
> > against
> > >> elections (peacefully I
> > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily armed
> > security forces
> > >> from by lanes as
> > >> serious violence especially when you are
> > permanently held
> > >> under section 144)
> > >> cannot be justified because some people there
> or
> > elsewhere
> > >> want to vote.  The
> > >> context in which elections are happening is
> pure
> > >> imposition... more of what has
> > >> been happening all along.
> > >>  Given the circumstances in Kashmir, spelling
> out
> > agendas
> > >> is not possible and
> > >> largely the establishment which wields power
> in
> > Kashmir is
> > >> responsible for
> > >> maintaining such a situation there.    There
> is
> > too much
> > >> intelligence
> > >> interference... too much security structure
> to
> > allow people
> > >> to breathe... let
> > >> alone have a Democratic process.  Too much of
> > humiliation
> > >> on the daily basis to
> > >> let a person feel human enough...   Even
> those who
> > were
> > >> alienated from religion
> > >> or primordial identities are being pushed to
> adopt
> > these
> > >> for bare survival.  In
> > >> wake of this the only articulation that is
> > possible is hate
> > >> or violence.  You
> > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and ask
> him/her
> > to talk
> > >> peace.  They might
> > >> oblige until you get off... but then hate you
> with
> > all the
> > >> intensity they can
> > >> muster soon after that.
> > >>  I think the situation is like this... We
> have
> > beaten
> > >> Kashmiris to the point of
> > >> making them into brutes... and now we justify
> the
> > >> continuity of violence by
> > >> saying look they are actually brutes and
> deserve
> > it!
> > >>  Two stints of stooge governments in Kashmir
> since
> > late
> > >> nineties should have
> > >> given a breather to India to bring about a
> serious
> > >> dialogue.  But what do they
> > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is the
> solution
> > and
> > >> squander the chance.
> > >>  We cannot maintain the facade of moral
> preachers
> > after all
> > >> that has happened
> > >> in Kashmir.  We must bow our heads in shame
> and
> > let the
> > >> people have their say.
> > >> Even though what they decide might not be to
> our
> > liking and
> > >> in our opinion
> > >> disastrous for them.   Too often our personal
> > interests get
> > >> enmeshed with our
> > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment such
> that we
> > cannot
> > >> see what is actually
> > >> happening to people.
> > >> At least I for one have stopped passing
> judgments
> > on the
> > >> people of Kashmir and
> > >> demonizing them.  I hope more of the civil
> society
> > >> activists who engage with
> > >> Kashmir will begin to do so.
> > >>
> > >> When you refer to intimidation and killing i
> am
> > surprised
> > >> that you miss out the
> > >> biggest killing machine in motion right
> now... the
> > CRPF!
> > >> You see we percieve
> > >> different realities because of where each of
> us is
> > located.
> > >>  The valley has seen
> > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis
> since
> > Amarnath
> > >> land row.  This seems to
> > >> be the current policy.  CRPF is communalised.
>  I
> > have my
> > >> batchmates within the
> > >> force and they give horrifying accounts of
> how the
> > force
> > >> percieves ordinary
> > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed or
> > humiliated for
> > >> no reason but for
> > >> what they are.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _________________________________________
> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media
> and
> > the city.
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> > >> To subscribe: send an email to
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and
> the
> > city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and
> the
> > city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > _________________________________________
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