[Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra!

gowhar fazli gowharfazili at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 10 22:54:46 IST 2008 

Bravo Kshmendra just won!  


>From hence forth i am planning to ignore him.


Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares.   
      
Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. 

Peter Ustinov


--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lies withdrawn & Accusations questioned
> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" <reader-list at sarai.net>, gowharfazili at yahoo.com
> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:56 PM
> Dear Gowhar
>  
> I do not comment on every single posting about Kashmir.
> Even when I feel strongly about something that might have
> been mentioned, I do not always comment. Sometimes I do.
>  
> This List is one such public forum of record that (as far
> as we know today) gets archived for 'ever' and
> therefore will serve as a very convienient and easily
> accesible reference library for all such
> subjects/topics/issues that get mentioned on
> it. Non-factual information on it needs to be challenged.
>  
> If one were to use on the Web the search string of
> "amarnath land row" and "deaths" it
> would throw up your mail saying that "The valley has
> seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath
> land row".
>  
> That is not opinion but information. Incorrect information.
> Thank you for having withdrawn it.
>  
> You might still be smarting (understandably so) by my abuse
> directed at you, but that does not mean you should
> misrepresent what I had written.
>  
> We have both regretted the death of 'innocents'.
> What makes your use of that word sincere and my use as being
> loaded with other meanings as suggested by you?
>  
> Not only did I write about the deaths of
> 'innocents':
>  
> """"""" It is true that
> 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since
> the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such
> death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized
> society """""
>  
> Going further than that, I also wrote about the deaths of
> others who (by whichever standard and from whichever point
> of view) might not be seen as "innocents. I wrote:
>  
> """""" I consider even the
> deaths of those who have consciously chosen the path of
> violence to further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate,
> regretable and avoidable."""""
>  
> If it is not clear from the above and I need to spell it
> out; For me any death (in context) is unfortunate, sad,
> regretable, avoidable, unacceptable.
>  
> Since it is the season for talking about
> "Accusations" on this List, let me come to those
> directed by you at me.
>  
> 1. In the earlier mail you seem to suggest that you were a
> 'special target of abuse' because you are a
> "Kashmiri Muslim". I see it as an accusation that
> you need to prove.
>  
> In your first post, neither did you identify yourself as
> being a Kashmiri Muslim, nor did I recognise you as being
> one when I 'abused' you. Isnt that correct? 
>  
> On the other hand, without any such reference to myself by
> me, you gave me the identity-tag of a "Brahmin".
> Alongwith it you gave me attributes of attitudes of
> various kinds of 'hates'. You had no justification
> for doing so.  
>  
> My attack on you and the 'abuse' was at you as the
> author of the words you had posted. You as a person and not
> at any identity-tag you may carry or want to be recognised
> by.
>  
> 2. You do need to prove all the "Accusations"
> directed at me:
>  
> - "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and
> inferior";
> - "wants to Dalitize so as to hate";
> - "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and
> abuse";
> - "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for
> abuse".
> 
> Gowhar, you are so very wide-off-the-mark on every one of
> those accusations that it is amusing. If nothing else, my
> postings on this List testify to that, so do not bother to
> defend your accusations. I excuse you.
>  
> Kshmendra
>  
>  
> 
> --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli
> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal
> Abuse...
> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:01 PM
> 
> Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include
> Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has
> bettered
> mine.  I thank him for his work of genius.  In fact,
> between
> the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they
> choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality
> depending on where they come from, and take moral
> positions.
>  
> 
> To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so
> close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5"
> figure and replace it with "scores of people",
> "more than usual or acceptable death toll which has
> become a norm" or "extraordinary number"...
> For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less,
> is equally criminal (notice he puts the word
> 'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may
> not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is
> innocent!)  Killing a couple of hundred more or less does
> not make a very big difference to the immorality of
> shooting
> on crowds to force them indoors. 
> 
> The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat
> conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim)
> and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect
> identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. 
> But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am
> glad they are both physically safe... for now.
> 
> 
> > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim
> > <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to
> > spitting and verbal Abuse...
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM
> > > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that
> is
> > the
> > > question:  A
> > > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and
> Kshmendra
> > ---- (
> > > keeping in
> > > mind that the facts are  stranger than fiction,
> but
> > the 
> > > reverse can
> > > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet
> > theirs
> > > only  )
> > > 
> > > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about
> exact
> > > statistics of
> > > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in
> > Kashmir.
> > > Even Panun
> > > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir,
> since
> > late
> > > nineties,
> > > should have given a breather to India to bring
> about a
> > > serious
> > > dialogue.  But what do they do?
> > > 
> > >  Kshmendra:   I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a
> young
> > > woman
> > > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats
> she is
> > > receiving...
> > > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I
> know
> > of
> > > so many of
> > > them who have used and subverted democratic
> > institutions
> > > for their own
> > > interest.
> > > 
> > >  Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though
> I
> > agree in
> > > part with yours.
> > > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a
> daily
> > > basis since
> > > Amarnath land row.
> > > 
> > > (  I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and  Cosmic SHE
> will be
> > > talking to each
> > > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in
> kashmir 
> > ?)
> > > 
> > > Kshmendra : You filthy lair.
> > > 
> > > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine.
> > > 
> > > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents'
> have
> > died
> > > in the 'valley'
> > > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I
> consider
> > any
> > > such death as
> > > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized
> > society. 
> > > But yours,
> > > is one more 'theatrical device' in the
> > 'theatre
> > > of false propaganda.
> > > 
> > > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom
> you
> > do
> > > not like or
> > > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a
> > > 'moron'
> > > 
> > > Kshmendra  : for sure you are a "moron'
> and a
> > > "filthy liar" and fully
> > > deserving of what you call 'abuse'.
> > > 
> > >  Gowhar :    'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how
> > Kashmiris
> > > should behave
> > > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership
> has to
> > > suite India's
> > > self-image its foreign policy and morality.' 
> that
> > the
> > > basic
> > > conditions for such an exercise and the
> atmosphere to
> > > engender such a
> > > collectively have been systematically removed
> from
> > Kashmir;
> > >  Just to
> > > keep people  from demonstrating for Azadi or
> > protesting
> > > against
> > > elections…
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > to be continued....
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
> > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Dear Gowhar Fazili
> > > >
> > > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is
> > something
> > > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in
> 'aside'
> > > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of
> > > information. In this case your 'filthy
> lie'
> > of:
> > > >
> > > >  """""" The
> valley
> > has
> > > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis
> since
> > Amarnath
> > > land
> row."""""""
> > > >
> > > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2)
> > > >
> > > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy
> lie'
> > > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might
> be
> > it's
> > > author, whether in a factual representation or in
> a
> > > fictional one.
> > > >
> > > > If you are not the protagonist
> "HE" in
> > your
> > > conversation piece then you should not be miffed
> about
> > any
> > > comments directed at "HIM".
> > > >
> > > > Incidentally the word "moron" to
> > describe
> > > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing)
> is a
> > word
> > > that I have not introduced into this List to
> describe
> > > someone like you.
> > > >
> > > > If it is you who is the "HE" in
> your
> > > conversation piece then for sure you are a
> > "moron'
> > > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving
> of
> > what
> > > you call 'abuse'.
> > > >
> > > > You whine that I should have placed
> 'counter
> > > figures' of what you think would be "a
> dozen
> > more
> > > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine
> > considering
> > > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated)
> realistic
> > > 'death count' and the 'figures'
> > suggested by
> > > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count
> of 2
> > to
> > > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row.
> > There, one
> > > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot.
> > > >
> > > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started
> > sometime
> > > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since
> it
> > started.
> > > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to
> 5', 
> > the
> > > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600.
> Do
> > you see
> > > what an 'idiot' you are?
> > > >
> > > > In this particular case let me distort the
> > application
> > > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The
> "Latin
> > legal
> > > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit,
> non qui
> > negat
> > > (the
> > > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on
> who
> > > denies)" In this case your assertion of 
> > > """""" The valley
> has
> > seen two
> > > to five people dead on a daily basis since
> Amarnath
> > land
> > > row."""""""
> > > >
> > > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to
> place
> > me
> > > into a compartment for which you have the
> identifying
> > > construct of "abused as a child";
> > "severe
> > > mental imbalance"; "(needing)
> psychological
> > > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you
> are
> > impure
> > > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as
> to
> > > hate"; "has Muslims as the current
> objects
> > of hate
> > > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as
> special
> > > targets for abuse".
> > > >
> > > > This is one more 'theatrical device'
> in
> > the
> > > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If
> questioned
> > about
> > > "filthy lies" for which you have no
> > justifiable,
> > > credible and believable response you attack the
> > questioner
> > > and attribute such characteristics to him/her
> that
> > will
> > > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with
> suspicion and
> > shift
> > > focus from your own 'filthy lie'.
> > > >
> > > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me
> can
> > only
> > > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not
> excuse
> > your
> > > "filthy lie"
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli
> > > <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: gowhar fazli
> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more
> to
> > spitting
> > > and verbal Abuse...
> > > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM
> > > >
> > > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... 
> > > Kshmendra's use of this language
> > > > against me on the readers list suggests he
> might
> > have
> > > been abused as a child.
> > > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being
> > abused as
> > > a child can create severe
> > > > mental imbalances and over reactions among
> > people. It
> > > might be high time for
> > > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological
> help
> > > because it has bearing on his
> > > > quality of life and of those around him.
> > > >
> > > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the
> > 'HE'
> > > in the dialogue I
> > > > posted... in which case he could have placed
> his
> > > counter figures (say a couple
> > > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and
> decently
> > asked
> > > for the source....There  was
> > > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive.
> > > >
> > > > The other more profound explanation could be
> that
> > it
> > > forms part of his
> > > > socialisation and culture.  Brahmin's
> have
> > long
> > > held it to be their right to
> > > > abuse those whom they consider impure and
> > inferior. 
> > > So in this light, cases
> > > > like spitting on someone whom you do not
> like or
> > > calling somebody a 'filthy
> > > > liar' or a 'moron'  might be an
> > attempt to
> > > reclaim that right and
> > > > culture against the current community they
> hate,
> > or to
> > > use a turn of phrase,
> > > > want to Dalitize...  Muslims appear to be
> the
> > current
> > > objects of hate and insult
> > > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most
> > assertive
> > > among them, they happen to
> > > > be the special targetsof abuse.
> > > >
> > > > The dialogue i had posted was not about
> exact
> > > statistics of the dead, but two
> > > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir...
> Hers,
> > that
> > > the democratic exercise
> > > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the
> > collective
> > > good... His, that the
> > > > basic conditions for such an exercise and
> the
> > > atmosphere to engender such a
> > > > collectivity have been systematically
> removed
> > Kashmir.
> > > >
> > > > Is it strange that he did not have any
> opinion on
> > > this?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul
> > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul
> > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A
> > filthy
> > > lie by Gowhar Fazli.
> > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>,
> > > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com
> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15
> PM
> > > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli
> > > >>
> > > >> The protagonist "HE" in the
> > conversation
> > > you have
> > > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself
> are
> > the
> > > >> "HE" then you are a filthy
> liar.
> > > >>
> > > >> I refer to the statement:
> > > >>
> > > >>  """"""
> The
> > valley
> > > has seen
> > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis
> > since
> > > Amarnath land
> > > >>
> > row."""""""
> > > >>
> > > >> It is true that 'innocents' have
> died
> > in
> > > the
> > > >> 'valley' since the start of the
> > Amarnath
> > > Land Row. I
> > > >> consider any such death as sad,
> unfortunate
> > and
> > > unacceptable
> > > >> for a civilized society. I consider even
> the
> > > deaths of
> > > >> those who have consciously chosen the
> path of
> > > violence to
> > > >> further their agenda as being sad,
> > unfortunate,
> > > regretable
> > > >> and avoidable.
> > > >>
> > > >> But that does not mean that
> 'morons'
> > like
> > > >> you should have the licence to float
> blatant
> > lies
> > > on this
> > > >> List or any other place, perhaps with
> the
> > smug
> > > >> thought that you will not be questioned.
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you
> a
> > > 'filthy
> > > >> liar'?
> > > >>
> > > >>  I invite you to evidence the statement
> of 2
> > to 5
> > > deaths
> > > >> daily in the 'valley' since the
> start
> > of
> > > the
> > > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any
> > credible
> > > news source
> > > >> of your choice. A credible  news source
> would
> > for
> > > sure have
> > > >> a presence on the Web where your
> statement
> > can be
> > > confirmed
> > > >> as being 'truthful' or as being
> a
> > > 'filthy
> > > >> lie' as I have called it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Kshmendra
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli
> > > >> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> From: gowhar fazli
> > <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah
> Muah!
> > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > > >> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17
> PM
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! 
> > (Commenting
> > > on my
> > > >> status of OBAH MUAH!)
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: :)
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance
> and
> > > bollywud magic
> > > >> that day on tv
> > > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and
> > > kisses....wah!!!
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one
> in
> > > Kashmir n one
> > > >> in US!
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: How can there be any
> comparison.....look
> > at
> > > the
> > > >> conduct of political
> > > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for
> each
> > > other....more
> > > >> to blame is also
> > > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream
> > > India......in fact in
> > > >> south Asia, the
> > > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote
> bank
> > and
> > > slur....we
> > > >> still have to grow as
> > > >> a democracy...remember we are only
> 60..as
> > compared
> > > to US
> > > >> 200. As far as Kashmir
> > > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what
> exactly
> > they
> > > blame
> > > >> the Indian govt of
> > > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir,
> a
> > young
> > > woman
> > > >> contesting from
> > > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is
> > > receiving... what
> > > >> does the Hurriyat want
> > > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of
> them
> > who
> > > have used
> > > >> and subverted
> > > >> democratic institutions for their own
> > interest. U
> > > know the
> > > >> major draw back in
> > > >> our part of the world is that we do not
> have
> > the
> > > courage
> > > >> for self correctness,
> > > >> self introspection.....USA did
> that....they
> > have
> > > brought in
> > > >> change...I admire
> > > >> that...
> > > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen....
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this
> though I
> > agree
> > > in part
> > > >> with yours
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: there are always many takes to
> Kashmir
> > > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a
> call
> > for
> > > Jamia
> > > >> Chalo for killing of 5
> > > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947.....
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people
> > protested
> > > in Kashmir
> > > >> for Azadi and were
> > > >> forced indoors by shooting on the
> protests...
> > > Kashmir is in
> > > >> no mood for election
> > > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed...
> > without
> > > any
> > > >> negotiation with the
> > > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the
> > government
> > > can offer
> > > >> is to impose a
> > > >> conventional election to meet its
> deadline to
> > show
> > > that all
> > > >> is well in Kashmir.
> > > >> It is not.
> > > >>   I think the bigger problem is this not
> the
> > > morality of
> > > >> our local politicians.
> > > >> the conditions we live in can only
> produce
> > the
> > > kind of
> > > >> politicians we presently
> > > >> have.
> > > >>  USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush
> for
> > eight
> > > years
> > > >> before it was time for
> > > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi
> decides
> > how
> > > Kashmiris
> > > >> should behave and who
> > > >> should be in power.
> > > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite
> India's
> > > self-image its
> > > >> foreign policy and
> > > >> morality.
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE:  you forget that people who are
> standing
> > for
> > > elections
> > > >> ( record number
> > > >> filled in nomination...to counter each
> other
> > ,
> > > their party
> > > >> workers shouting anti
> > > >> India slogans )  or people wanting to
> vote
> > are
> > > also
> > > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun
> > > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though
> for
> > > different
> > > >> reasons. They are
> > > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who
> want
> > to
> > > vote are
> > > >> Kashmiris too...so are
> > > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are
> > Ladhakis ,
> > > Poocnhis,
> > > >> etc who want to
> > > >> vote...no one is shying away from
> resolving
> > the
> > > >> issue...spell out the  agenda
> > > >> and ideology and let people decide, why
> > intimidate
> > > them,
> > > >> kill them...why instill
> > > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say
> > they..I
> > > mean all
> > > >> those, religious
> > > >> groups, media, separatist so called
> > > nationalist.... who
> > > >> want to build their own
> > > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu
> or
> > anywhere
> > > >> else...as I said we need to
> > > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues
> is
> > bit
> > > >> difficult...
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: I didn't forget them...
> Ladakhis,
> > Pandits,
> > > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who
> > > >> want to vote for various reasons...  Yet
> 
> > daily
> > > killing to
> > > >> keep people to keep
> > > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or
> > protesting
> > > against
> > > >> elections (peacefully I
> > > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily
> armed
> > > security forces
> > > >> from by lanes as
> > > >> serious violence especially when you are
> > > permanently held
> > > >> under section 144)
> > > >> cannot be justified because some people
> there
> > or
> > > elsewhere
> > > >> want to vote.  The
> > > >> context in which elections are happening
> is
> > pure
> > > >> imposition... more of what has
> > > >> been happening all along.
> > > >>  Given the circumstances in Kashmir,
> spelling
> > out
> > > agendas
> > > >> is not possible and
> > > >> largely the establishment which wields
> power
> > in
> > > Kashmir is
> > > >> responsible for
> > > >> maintaining such a situation there.   
> There
> > is
> > > too much
> > > >> intelligence
> > > >> interference... too much security
> structure
> > to
> > > allow people
> > > >> to breathe... let
> > > >> alone have a Democratic process.  Too
> much of
> > > humiliation
> > > >> on the daily basis to
> > > >> let a person feel human enough...   Even
> > those who
> > > were
> > > >> alienated from religion
> > > >> or primordial identities are being
> pushed to
> > adopt
> > > these
> > > >> for bare survival.  In
> > > >> wake of this the only articulation that
> is
> > > possible is hate
> > > >> or violence.  You
> > > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and
> ask
> > him/her
> > > to talk
> > > >> peace.  They might
> > > >> oblige until you get off... but then
> hate you
> > with
> > > all the
> > > >> intensity they can
> > > >> muster soon after that.
> > > >>  I think the situation is like this...
> We
> > have
> > > beaten
> > > >> Kashmiris to the point of
> > > >> making them into brutes... and now we
> justify
> > the
> > > >> continuity of violence by
> > > >> saying look they are actually brutes and
> > deserve
> > > it!
> > > >>  Two stints of stooge governments in
> Kashmir
> > since
> > > late
> > > >> nineties should have
> > > >> given a breather to India to bring about
> a
> > serious
> > > >> dialogue.  But what do they
> > > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is
> the
> > solution
> > > and
> > > >> squander the chance.
> > > >>  We cannot maintain the facade of moral
> > preachers
> > > after all
> > > >> that has happened
> > > >> in Kashmir.  We must bow our heads in
> shame
> > and
> > > let the
> > > >> people have their say.
> > > >> Even though what they decide might not
> be to
> > our
> > > liking and
> > > >> in our opinion
> > > >> disastrous for them.   Too often our
> personal
> > > interests get
> > > >> enmeshed with our
> > > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment
> such
> > that we
> > > cannot
> > > >> see what is actually
> > > >> happening to people.
> > > >> At least I for one have stopped passing
> > judgments
> > > on the
> > > >> people of Kashmir and
> > > >> demonizing them.  I hope more of the
> civil
> > society
> > > >> activists who engage with
> > > >> Kashmir will begin to do so.
> > > >>
> > > >> When you refer to intimidation and
> killing i
> > am
> > > surprised
> > > >> that you miss out the
> > > >> biggest killing machine in motion right
> > now... the
> > > CRPF!
> > > >> You see we percieve
> > > >> different realities because of where
> each of
> > us is
> > > located.
> > > >>  The valley has seen
> > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis
> > since
> > > Amarnath
> > > >> land row.  This seems to
> > > >> be the current policy.  CRPF is
> communalised.
> >  I
> > > have my
> > > >> batchmates within the
> > > >> force and they give horrifying accounts
> of
> > how the
> > > force
> > > >> percieves ordinary
> > > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed
> or
> > > humiliated for
> > > >> no reason but for
> > > >> what they are.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________
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> media and
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> > > >
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> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 
> > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > > _________________________________________
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> 
> 
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