[Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra!

Kshmendra Kaul kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
Tue Nov 11 04:45:57 IST 2008 

(this is just for record since Gowhar having chosen to ignore me will not get to read this)
 
Dear Gowhar
 
Your concession (even if were a graceful one) gives me no joy. I would have been happy if I had managed to nudge you out of the gridlock of your mind towards a more expansive and inclusive thinking. It was not to be. 
 
I am saddened that you have chosen to ignore me.
 
My comments on the two quotes of Peter Ustinov you have given:
 
- Nightmares are as much a part of you as your dreams are. Nightmares are nothing else but your dreams that you do not like. Both are the products of your own mind.
 
- The endless forgiveness required for Love is not for others alone. You must be able to forgive your own self too. It may be hard to forgive others. It is much harder to forgive your own self.
 
Here are two other quotes attributed to Peter Ustinov:
 
1. "Once we are destined to live out our lives in the prison of our mind, our one duty is to furnish it well."
 
2. “Intelligent or not, we all make mistakes and perhaps the intelligent mistakes are the worst, because so much careful thought has gone into them”
 
Kshmendra


--- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Reader-list] Bravo Kshmendra!
To: "reader-list at sarai.net" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 10:54 PM

Bravo Kshmendra just won!  


>From hence forth i am planning to ignore him.


Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams
is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares.   
      
Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. 

Peter Ustinov


--- On Mon, 11/10/08, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lies withdrawn & Accusations questioned
> To: "reader-list at sarai.net" <reader-list at sarai.net>,
gowharfazili at yahoo.com
> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 5:56 PM
> Dear Gowhar
>  
> I do not comment on every single posting about Kashmir.
> Even when I feel strongly about something that might have
> been mentioned, I do not always comment. Sometimes I do.
>  
> This List is one such public forum of record that (as far
> as we know today) gets archived for 'ever' and
> therefore will serve as a very convienient and easily
> accesible reference library for all such
> subjects/topics/issues that get mentioned on
> it. Non-factual information on it needs to be challenged.
>  
> If one were to use on the Web the search string of
> "amarnath land row" and "deaths" it
> would throw up your mail saying that "The valley has
> seen two to five people dead on a daily basis since Amarnath
> land row".
>  
> That is not opinion but information. Incorrect information.
> Thank you for having withdrawn it.
>  
> You might still be smarting (understandably so) by my abuse
> directed at you, but that does not mean you should
> misrepresent what I had written.
>  
> We have both regretted the death of 'innocents'.
> What makes your use of that word sincere and my use as being
> loaded with other meanings as suggested by you?
>  
> Not only did I write about the deaths of
> 'innocents':
>  
> """"""" It is true that
> 'innocents' have died in the 'valley' since
> the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I consider any such
> death as sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized
> society """""
>  
> Going further than that, I also wrote about the deaths of
> others who (by whichever standard and from whichever point
> of view) might not be seen as "innocents. I wrote:
>  
> """""" I consider even the
> deaths of those who have consciously chosen the path of
> violence to further their agenda as being sad, unfortunate,
> regretable and avoidable."""""
>  
> If it is not clear from the above and I need to spell it
> out; For me any death (in context) is unfortunate, sad,
> regretable, avoidable, unacceptable.
>  
> Since it is the season for talking about
> "Accusations" on this List, let me come to those
> directed by you at me.
>  
> 1. In the earlier mail you seem to suggest that you were a
> 'special target of abuse' because you are a
> "Kashmiri Muslim". I see it as an accusation that
> you need to prove.
>  
> In your first post, neither did you identify yourself as
> being a Kashmiri Muslim, nor did I recognise you as being
> one when I 'abused' you. Isnt that correct? 
>  
> On the other hand, without any such reference to myself by
> me, you gave me the identity-tag of a "Brahmin".
> Alongwith it you gave me attributes of attitudes of
> various kinds of 'hates'. You had no justification
> for doing so.  
>  
> My attack on you and the 'abuse' was at you as the
> author of the words you had posted. You as a person and not
> at any identity-tag you may carry or want to be recognised
> by.
>  
> 2. You do need to prove all the "Accusations"
> directed at me:
>  
> - "abusive Brahmin who thinks you are impure and
> inferior";
> - "wants to Dalitize so as to hate";
> - "has Muslims as the current objects of hate and
> abuse";
> - "has Kashmiri Muslims as special targets for
> abuse".
> 
> Gowhar, you are so very wide-off-the-mark on every one of
> those accusations that it is amusing. If nothing else, my
> postings on this List testify to that, so do not bother to
> defend your accusations. I excuse you.
>  
> Kshmendra
>  
>  
> 
> --- On Mon, 11/10/08, gowhar fazli
> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: gowhar fazli <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Reader-list] Deconstruction, spitting and verbal
> Abuse...
> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:01 PM
> 
> Inder's reconstruction of my dialogue to include
> Kshemendra and thus breaking down the narrative has
> bettered
> mine.  I thank him for his work of genius.  In fact,
> between
> the HE and SHE also what i see interesting is that they
> choose to prioritize different aspects of the same reality
> depending on where they come from, and take moral
> positions.
>  
> 
> To address Kshemendra's number game which seems so
> close to his heart... i withdraw the "2 to 5"
> figure and replace it with "scores of people",
> "more than usual or acceptable death toll which has
> become a norm" or "extraordinary number"...
> For me the killing of innocent people whether more or less,
> is equally criminal (notice he puts the word
> 'innocent' in parenthesis, suggesting that he may
> not believe anybody in Kashmir, minus the Pandits is
> innocent!)  Killing a couple of hundred more or less does
> not make a very big difference to the immorality of
> shooting
> on crowds to force them indoors. 
> 
> The initial dialogue was taken from an actual chat
> conversation between HE and SHE, (a Panditani and a Muslim)
> and was copied verbatim replacing the names to protect
> identity, so that neither of them is spat upon or abused. 
> But it seems the idea still provoked abuse... though i am
> glad they are both physically safe... for now.
> 
> 
> > --- On Mon, 11/10/08, inder salim
> > <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] There might be more to
> > spitting and verbal Abuse...
> > > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 12:16 AM
> > > to have elections in kashmir or not to have, that
> is
> > the
> > > question:  A
> > > reconstruct of dialogue between Gowhar and
> Kshmendra
> > ---- (
> > > keeping in
> > > mind that the facts are  stranger than fiction,
> but
> > the 
> > > reverse can
> > > be true also, so not necessarily theirs, and yet
> > theirs
> > > only  )
> > > 
> > > Gowhar : The dialogue i had posted was not about
> exact
> > > statistics of
> > > the dead, but two perspectives on the election in
> > Kashmir.
> > > Even Panun
> > > Kashmir is boycotting elections… In Kashmir,
> since
> > late
> > > nineties,
> > > should have given a breather to India to bring
> about a
> > > serious
> > > dialogue.  But what do they do?
> > > 
> > >  Kshmendra:   I was speaking to Gousia Bashir, a
> young
> > > woman
> > > contesting from Bandipora...the kind of threats
> she is
> > > receiving...
> > > what does the Hurriyat want ...Governor rule....I
> know
> > of
> > > so many of
> > > them who have used and subverted democratic
> > institutions
> > > for their own
> > > interest.
> > > 
> > >  Gowhar : hmmm I have my own take on this though
> I
> > agree in
> > > part with yours.
> > > The valley has seen two to five people dead on a
> daily
> > > basis since
> > > Amarnath land row.
> > > 
> > > (  I wonder how, the Cosmic HE and  Cosmic SHE
> will be
> > > talking to each
> > > other in Amarnath Cave itself, on the pain in
> kashmir 
> > ?)
> > > 
> > > Kshmendra : You filthy lair.
> > > 
> > > Gowhar: CRPF is a killing machine.
> > > 
> > > Kshmendra : It is true that 'innocents'
> have
> > died
> > > in the 'valley'
> > > since the start of the Amarnath Land Row. I
> consider
> > any
> > > such death as
> > > sad, unfortunate and unacceptable for a civilized
> > society. 
> > > But yours,
> > > is one more 'theatrical device' in the
> > 'theatre
> > > of false propaganda.
> > > 
> > > Gowhar : but, cases like spitting on someone whom
> you
> > do
> > > not like or
> > > calling somebody a 'filthy liar' or a
> > > 'moron'
> > > 
> > > Kshmendra  : for sure you are a "moron'
> and a
> > > "filthy liar" and fully
> > > deserving of what you call 'abuse'.
> > > 
> > >  Gowhar :    'in Kashmir, Delhi decides how
> > Kashmiris
> > > should behave
> > > and who should be in power. Kashmiri leadership
> has to
> > > suite India's
> > > self-image its foreign policy and morality.' 
> that
> > the
> > > basic
> > > conditions for such an exercise and the
> atmosphere to
> > > engender such a
> > > collectively have been systematically removed
> from
> > Kashmir;
> > >  Just to
> > > keep people  from demonstrating for Azadi or
> > protesting
> > > against
> > > elections…
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > to be continued....
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
> > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Dear Gowhar Fazili
> > > >
> > > > The 'theatre of false propaganda' is
> > something
> > > I enjoy analysing. A slyly slipped in
> 'aside'
> > > seeking to establish itself as a factual piece of
> > > information. In this case your 'filthy
> lie'
> > of:
> > > >
> > > >  """""" The
> valley
> > has
> > > seen two to five people dead on a daily basis
> since
> > Amarnath
> > > land
> row."""""""
> > > >
> > > > (5 incidentally is 150 percent more than 2)
> > > >
> > > > A 'filthy lie' is a 'filthy
> lie'
> > > wherever it might be placed and whosoever might
> be
> > it's
> > > author, whether in a factual representation or in
> a
> > > fictional one.
> > > >
> > > > If you are not the protagonist
> "HE" in
> > your
> > > conversation piece then you should not be miffed
> about
> > any
> > > comments directed at "HIM".
> > > >
> > > > Incidentally the word "moron" to
> > describe
> > > someone like you (as evidenced by your writing)
> is a
> > word
> > > that I have not introduced into this List to
> describe
> > > someone like you.
> > > >
> > > > If it is you who is the "HE" in
> your
> > > conversation piece then for sure you are a
> > "moron'
> > > and a "filthy liar" and fully deserving
> of
> > what
> > > you call 'abuse'.
> > > >
> > > > You whine that I should have placed
> 'counter
> > > figures' of what you think would be "a
> dozen
> > more
> > > or less". It is an 'idiotic' whine
> > considering
> > > the gulf between (even a fairly exaggerated)
> realistic
> > > 'death count' and the 'figures'
> > suggested by
> > > you by extrapolating your 'daily death count
> of 2
> > to
> > > 5' since the start of the Amarnath Land Row.
> > There, one
> > > more abuse for you. I just called you an idiot.
> > > >
> > > > If the "Amarnath Land Row" started
> > sometime
> > > in mid-June then it has been over 120 days since
> it
> > started.
> > > Going by your 'daily death count of 2 to
> 5', 
> > the
> > > 'dead' would be at least 240 to over 600.
> Do
> > you see
> > > what an 'idiot' you are?
> > > >
> > > > In this particular case let me distort the
> > application
> > > of what Shivam Vij educated us about. The
> "Latin
> > legal
> > > principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit,
> non qui
> > negat
> > > (the
> > > > burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on
> who
> > > denies)" In this case your assertion of 
> > > """""" The valley
> has
> > seen two
> > > to five people dead on a daily basis since
> Amarnath
> > land
> > > row."""""""
> > > >
> > > > Gowhar, it is fine with me if you want to
> place
> > me
> > > into a compartment for which you have the
> identifying
> > > construct of "abused as a child";
> > "severe
> > > mental imbalance"; "(needing)
> psychological
> > > help"; "abusive Brahmin who thinks you
> are
> > impure
> > > and inferior"; "wants to Dalitize so as
> to
> > > hate"; "has Muslims as the current
> objects
> > of hate
> > > and abuse"; "has Kashmiri Muslims as
> special
> > > targets for abuse".
> > > >
> > > > This is one more 'theatrical device'
> in
> > the
> > > 'theatre of false propaganda'. If
> questioned
> > about
> > > "filthy lies" for which you have no
> > justifiable,
> > > credible and believable response you attack the
> > questioner
> > > and attribute such characteristics to him/her
> that
> > will
> > > demonise him/her so as to be viewed with
> suspicion and
> > shift
> > > focus from your own 'filthy lie'.
> > > >
> > > > All that is fine Gowhar. That descript of me
> can
> > only
> > > serve to explain my inadequacies. It does not
> excuse
> > your
> > > "filthy lie"
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 11/9/08, gowhar fazli
> > > <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: gowhar fazli
> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: [Reader-list] There might be more
> to
> > spitting
> > > and verbal Abuse...
> > > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:09 PM
> > > >
> > > > 'Filty Liar', 'Moron'... 
> > > Kshmendra's use of this language
> > > > against me on the readers list suggests he
> might
> > have
> > > been abused as a child.
> > > > If this is true i feel sorry for him. Being
> > abused as
> > > a child can create severe
> > > > mental imbalances and over reactions among
> > people. It
> > > might be high time for
> > > > people like Kshmendra to seek psychological
> help
> > > because it has bearing on his
> > > > quality of life and of those around him.
> > > >
> > > > He may dispute the figures quoted by the
> > 'HE'
> > > in the dialogue I
> > > > posted... in which case he could have placed
> his
> > > counter figures (say a couple
> > > > of dozen more or less) or fairly and
> decently
> > asked
> > > for the source....There  was
> > > > absolutely no need for him to get abusive.
> > > >
> > > > The other more profound explanation could be
> that
> > it
> > > forms part of his
> > > > socialisation and culture.  Brahmin's
> have
> > long
> > > held it to be their right to
> > > > abuse those whom they consider impure and
> > inferior. 
> > > So in this light, cases
> > > > like spitting on someone whom you do not
> like or
> > > calling somebody a 'filthy
> > > > liar' or a 'moron'  might be an
> > attempt to
> > > reclaim that right and
> > > > culture against the current community they
> hate,
> > or to
> > > use a turn of phrase,
> > > > want to Dalitize...  Muslims appear to be
> the
> > current
> > > objects of hate and insult
> > > > and because Kashmiri Muslims are the most
> > assertive
> > > among them, they happen to
> > > > be the special targetsof abuse.
> > > >
> > > > The dialogue i had posted was not about
> exact
> > > statistics of the dead, but two
> > > > perspectives on the election in Kashmir...
> Hers,
> > that
> > > the democratic exercise
> > > > was worthwhile in all circumstances for the
> > collective
> > > good... His, that the
> > > > basic conditions for such an exercise and
> the
> > > atmosphere to engender such a
> > > > collectivity have been systematically
> removed
> > Kashmir.
> > > >
> > > > Is it strange that he did not have any
> opinion on
> > > this?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Kshmendra Kaul
> > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul
> > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > >> Subject: 2 to 5 daily dead in Kashmir. A
> > filthy
> > > lie by Gowhar Fazli.
> > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > > <reader-list at sarai.net>,
> > > > gowharfazili at yahoo.com
> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 6:15
> PM
> > > >> Dear Gowhar Fazli
> > > >>
> > > >> The protagonist "HE" in the
> > conversation
> > > you have
> > > >> posted is a filthy liar. If you yourself
> are
> > the
> > > >> "HE" then you are a filthy
> liar.
> > > >>
> > > >> I refer to the statement:
> > > >>
> > > >>  """"""
> The
> > valley
> > > has seen
> > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis
> > since
> > > Amarnath land
> > > >>
> > row."""""""
> > > >>
> > > >> It is true that 'innocents' have
> died
> > in
> > > the
> > > >> 'valley' since the start of the
> > Amarnath
> > > Land Row. I
> > > >> consider any such death as sad,
> unfortunate
> > and
> > > unacceptable
> > > >> for a civilized society. I consider even
> the
> > > deaths of
> > > >> those who have consciously chosen the
> path of
> > > violence to
> > > >> further their agenda as being sad,
> > unfortunate,
> > > regretable
> > > >> and avoidable.
> > > >>
> > > >> But that does not mean that
> 'morons'
> > like
> > > >> you should have the licence to float
> blatant
> > lies
> > > on this
> > > >> List or any other place, perhaps with
> the
> > smug
> > > >> thought that you will not be questioned.
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you want to contest my declaring you
> a
> > > 'filthy
> > > >> liar'?
> > > >>
> > > >>  I invite you to evidence the statement
> of 2
> > to 5
> > > deaths
> > > >> daily in the 'valley' since the
> start
> > of
> > > the
> > > >> Amarnath Land Row. You can choose any
> > credible
> > > news source
> > > >> of your choice. A credible  news source
> would
> > for
> > > sure have
> > > >> a presence on the Web where your
> statement
> > can be
> > > confirmed
> > > >> as being 'truthful' or as being
> a
> > > 'filthy
> > > >> lie' as I have called it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Kshmendra
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Sat, 11/8/08, gowhar fazli
> > > >> <gowharfazili at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> From: gowhar fazli
> > <gowharfazili at yahoo.com>
> > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] She, Me and Obah
> Muah!
> > > >> To: "reader-list at sarai.net"
> > > >> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > >> Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008, 5:17
> PM
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: gud one!! The status!! Ha ha!! 
> > (Commenting
> > > on my
> > > >> status of OBAH MUAH!)
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: :)
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: actually it was my kind of romance
> and
> > > bollywud magic
> > > >> that day on tv
> > > >> ...drama, suspense, tears, smooches and
> > > kisses....wah!!!
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: and compare the two elections... one
> in
> > > Kashmir n one
> > > >> in US!
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: How can there be any
> comparison.....look
> > at
> > > the
> > > >> conduct of political
> > > >> parties in jk, the language and hate for
> each
> > > other....more
> > > >> to blame is also
> > > >> Hurriyat....even in larger mainstream
> > > India......in fact in
> > > >> south Asia, the
> > > >> polity is mired with corruption, vote
> bank
> > and
> > > slur....we
> > > >> still have to grow as
> > > >> a democracy...remember we are only
> 60..as
> > compared
> > > to US
> > > >> 200. As far as Kashmir
> > > >> is concerned...Hurriyat is doing what
> exactly
> > they
> > > blame
> > > >> the Indian govt of
> > > >> doing...I was speaking to Gousia Bashir,
> a
> > young
> > > woman
> > > >> contesting from
> > > >> Bandipora...the kind of threats she is
> > > receiving... what
> > > >> does the Hurriyat want
> > > >> ...Governor rule....I know of so many of
> them
> > who
> > > have used
> > > >> and subverted
> > > >> democratic institutions for their own
> > interest. U
> > > know the
> > > >> major draw back in
> > > >> our part of the world is that we do not
> have
> > the
> > > courage
> > > >> for self correctness,
> > > >> self introspection.....USA did
> that....they
> > have
> > > brought in
> > > >> change...I admire
> > > >> that...
> > > >> baithey gen tou baat kargengen....
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: hmmm I have my own take on this
> though I
> > agree
> > > in part
> > > >> with yours
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE: there are always many takes to
> Kashmir
> > > >> what was the need for Hurriyat to give a
> call
> > for
> > > Jamia
> > > >> Chalo for killing of 5
> > > >> lakhs muslims in Jammu in 1947.....
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: Given the fact that 10 lakh people
> > protested
> > > in Kashmir
> > > >> for Azadi and were
> > > >> forced indoors by shooting on the
> protests...
> > > Kashmir is in
> > > >> no mood for election
> > > >> right now... yet it has to be imposed...
> > without
> > > any
> > > >> negotiation with the
> > > >> leadership opposed to it. All that the
> > government
> > > can offer
> > > >> is to impose a
> > > >> conventional election to meet its
> deadline to
> > show
> > > that all
> > > >> is well in Kashmir.
> > > >> It is not.
> > > >>   I think the bigger problem is this not
> the
> > > morality of
> > > >> our local politicians.
> > > >> the conditions we live in can only
> produce
> > the
> > > kind of
> > > >> politicians we presently
> > > >> have.
> > > >>  USA did tolerate a bastard like Bush
> for
> > eight
> > > years
> > > >> before it was time for
> > > >> Obama to come in... in Kashmir Delhi
> decides
> > how
> > > Kashmiris
> > > >> should behave and who
> > > >> should be in power.
> > > >> Kashmiri leadership has to suite
> India's
> > > self-image its
> > > >> foreign policy and
> > > >> morality.
> > > >>
> > > >> SHE:  you forget that people who are
> standing
> > for
> > > elections
> > > >> ( record number
> > > >> filled in nomination...to counter each
> other
> > ,
> > > their party
> > > >> workers shouting anti
> > > >> India slogans )  or people wanting to
> vote
> > are
> > > also
> > > >> Kashmiris. Even Panun
> > > >> Kashmir is boycotting elections, though
> for
> > > different
> > > >> reasons. They are
> > > >> Kashmiris too and many other pandits who
> want
> > to
> > > vote are
> > > >> Kashmiris too...so are
> > > >> the Sikhs and not to forget there are
> > Ladhakis ,
> > > Poocnhis,
> > > >> etc who want to
> > > >> vote...no one is shying away from
> resolving
> > the
> > > >> issue...spell out the  agenda
> > > >> and ideology and let people decide, why
> > intimidate
> > > them,
> > > >> kill them...why instill
> > > >> so much hatred in them...and when I say
> > they..I
> > > mean all
> > > >> those, religious
> > > >> groups, media, separatist so called
> > > nationalist.... who
> > > >> want to build their own
> > > >> constituencies … be it valley, Jammu
> or
> > anywhere
> > > >> else...as I said we need to
> > > >> sit and talk....chatting on these issues
> is
> > bit
> > > >> difficult...
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> HE: I didn't forget them...
> Ladakhis,
> > Pandits,
> > > >> Jammu-ites, and all those who
> > > >> want to vote for various reasons...  Yet
> 
> > daily
> > > killing to
> > > >> keep people to keep
> > > >> them from demonstrating for Azadi or
> > protesting
> > > against
> > > >> elections (peacefully I
> > > >> do not see pelting stones at heavily
> armed
> > > security forces
> > > >> from by lanes as
> > > >> serious violence especially when you are
> > > permanently held
> > > >> under section 144)
> > > >> cannot be justified because some people
> there
> > or
> > > elsewhere
> > > >> want to vote.  The
> > > >> context in which elections are happening
> is
> > pure
> > > >> imposition... more of what has
> > > >> been happening all along.
> > > >>  Given the circumstances in Kashmir,
> spelling
> > out
> > > agendas
> > > >> is not possible and
> > > >> largely the establishment which wields
> power
> > in
> > > Kashmir is
> > > >> responsible for
> > > >> maintaining such a situation there.   
> There
> > is
> > > too much
> > > >> intelligence
> > > >> interference... too much security
> structure
> > to
> > > allow people
> > > >> to breathe... let
> > > >> alone have a Democratic process.  Too
> much of
> > > humiliation
> > > >> on the daily basis to
> > > >> let a person feel human enough...   Even
> > those who
> > > were
> > > >> alienated from religion
> > > >> or primordial identities are being
> pushed to
> > adopt
> > > these
> > > >> for bare survival.  In
> > > >> wake of this the only articulation that
> is
> > > possible is hate
> > > >> or violence.  You
> > > >> cannot sit on someone's throat and
> ask
> > him/her
> > > to talk
> > > >> peace.  They might
> > > >> oblige until you get off... but then
> hate you
> > with
> > > all the
> > > >> intensity they can
> > > >> muster soon after that.
> > > >>  I think the situation is like this...
> We
> > have
> > > beaten
> > > >> Kashmiris to the point of
> > > >> making them into brutes... and now we
> justify
> > the
> > > >> continuity of violence by
> > > >> saying look they are actually brutes and
> > deserve
> > > it!
> > > >>  Two stints of stooge governments in
> Kashmir
> > since
> > > late
> > > >> nineties should have
> > > >> given a breather to India to bring about
> a
> > serious
> > > >> dialogue.  But what do they
> > > >> do? Decide that the temporary lull is
> the
> > solution
> > > and
> > > >> squander the chance.
> > > >>  We cannot maintain the facade of moral
> > preachers
> > > after all
> > > >> that has happened
> > > >> in Kashmir.  We must bow our heads in
> shame
> > and
> > > let the
> > > >> people have their say.
> > > >> Even though what they decide might not
> be to
> > our
> > > liking and
> > > >> in our opinion
> > > >> disastrous for them.   Too often our
> personal
> > > interests get
> > > >> enmeshed with our
> > > >> moral visions and cloud our judgment
> such
> > that we
> > > cannot
> > > >> see what is actually
> > > >> happening to people.
> > > >> At least I for one have stopped passing
> > judgments
> > > on the
> > > >> people of Kashmir and
> > > >> demonizing them.  I hope more of the
> civil
> > society
> > > >> activists who engage with
> > > >> Kashmir will begin to do so.
> > > >>
> > > >> When you refer to intimidation and
> killing i
> > am
> > > surprised
> > > >> that you miss out the
> > > >> biggest killing machine in motion right
> > now... the
> > > CRPF!
> > > >> You see we percieve
> > > >> different realities because of where
> each of
> > us is
> > > located.
> > > >>  The valley has seen
> > > >> two to five people dead on a daily basis
> > since
> > > Amarnath
> > > >> land row.  This seems to
> > > >> be the current policy.  CRPF is
> communalised.
> >  I
> > > have my
> > > >> batchmates within the
> > > >> force and they give horrifying accounts
> of
> > how the
> > > force
> > > >> percieves ordinary
> > > >> Kashmiri's as worthy of being killed
> or
> > > humiliated for
> > > >> no reason but for
> > > >> what they are.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> _________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________
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> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 
> > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
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> 
> 
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