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[Gargi Sen]

Dear Kirdar, Tapas, dear all,
I have been very fascinated by two contrasting mahabharat (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata) characters for their boldness and
its lack: Bhim the strong and Yudhisthir the vacillator, procrastinator,
thinker...
But tell me who is the bold of the two? What is a bold decision? To wage a
war or to insist on locating options to negotiate and defuse conflict while
knowing that any such act will be construed as weak?
Who is bold? Who wins in a war?

And why should a moderator have to be a monitor? Why is the refusal, to
consciously separate the two roles and not accept one of them, not bold?

In any case as readers, and in my case a lurker too, how can my presence/
absence be decided by someone else? I choose to belong or not ­ and Messrs.
Aditya and Pawan have made many petulant threats to leave and not left ­ but
that choice is theirs too, as mine. But I think the choice ends there ­ I
can belong or not, ignore or listen, talk or be silent but to put conditions
for my belonging, that I will belong only if such and such persons ­ however
repugnant they may be to me - are removed, seems a bit odd with the very
nature of a collective space for thought.

I am afraid too that such demands resonate with, and reflect the Brahminical
worldview that believes it is both legitimate and entitled to curtail and
regulate who can participate and who can not. In debates, in society, in
property and in life.

Warmly,
Gargi Sen 

PS: Meanwhile dear Aditya and Pawan, please furnish proof that Shuddha and
Arti are paid to write on the Sarai list.

On 13/11/08 10:29 PM, "Kirdar" <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all You folks really have so much time and patience to write
> philosophical explanations about your inability to take a bold decision, that
> I myself have a doubt that you are being "paid to write these". It was fun
> being on Sarai. May be I will join back after a few decades. Thanks for
> everything. Kirdar On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Tapas Ray
> <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote: > Monica, > > It is, of course, your prerogative
> to decide whether the likes of Pawan > and Aditya should be expelled or not.
> But I would like to repeat - > because I would request you to consider - a
> couple of things I have said > recently and had said two or three years ago
> (maybe earlier) when this > whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I
> remember) throwing in the > cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to
> stop repeating the same > "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few
> others in that > enterprise. > > After this had gone on for what then seemed
> like an eternity and now in > hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said
> that the expulsion of > these people should be considered, because it was
> clear they had no > interest in rational critical debate and were determined
> to disrupt such > debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my
> understanding) > had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they
> had no > business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the
> only > possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive
> measures > like expulsion were not acceptable. > > I had pointed out that the
> Nazis had used democracy to disrupt democracy > and communist parties had been
> taking part in elections and getting > elected in multiparty systems with the
> long-term goal of replacing that > very system with dictatorship. In other
> words, there ought to be a limit > up to which such forces can be allowed to
> operate freely. If not, that > freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
> > > The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today, >
> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse > globally
> and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have > noted, and is
> likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have > noted. I agree with you
> - if we go back to the Great Depression and the > rise of fascists and Nazis,
> we will see why. And it's there that we come > back to the question of our
> list. > > Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
> > Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their >
> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or > concepts?
> No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our > minds? No.
> Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood the > list with
> their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they > want to achieve?
> My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some > of us to unsubscribe
> in disgust, and effectively take over the list. Why > do they spend so much
> time and energy on this? My answer is, they see > some value in it - they know
> that this list has earned respect as a > liberal/progressive forum hosting
> some high-quality discussions (along > with their venom) and they want to
> snuff it out for that very reason. > > The question remains, why? The simple
> answer - in my opinion - is that > these members are (as we have stated
> recently) part of the fascist creep > we have seen in India, which is becoming
> a thrust with every passing > day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even
> in Gujarat, or in the > recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller
> riots and pogroms > during these years, we should perhaps see it in the
> revelation that some > army officers have been involved in terrorist
> activities. Some of us > will probably object to my characterization. For
> their benefit I am > quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins
> Dictionary of > Sociology. > > "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent
> element of the ideology ... > The following are some of the main constituents
> in fascist writings and > actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with
> territorial expansion; > virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of
> most other > political ideologies and independent working-class organizations;
> the > open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against these
> > groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful > leadership,
> and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and > depending on
> continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the > leadership; the
> glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed > masculine virtues,
> with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters > of men; predominant
> support from the middle classes who are the main, > though not exclusive, mass
> support." > > The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason
> alone? My > answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it. > > Tapas >
> > > > Monica Narula wrote: >> Dear All >> >> I think its rather cute the way
> dear everyone is asking for an >> intervention from the admin - now
> increasingly feeling like a class >> monitor! >> >> The coming years are going
> to be a difficult ones. There is going to >> be a massive drop in employment
> opportunities, liquidity will fall, >> infrastructure will remain half-built
> etc. There will also be an >> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am
> guessing, will lead to an >> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and
> exclusive >> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game
> and >> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I >>
> am a little ambivalent about. >> >> I request list members to be aware that
> making charges without >> substantial ground is more to do with incitement
> than to do with >> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come
> to term >> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
> >> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some >>
> votaries. >> >> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
> >> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of >> accusations
> and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think >> how to deal with
> language, and what it says, in what can feel like a >> crumbling world, rather
> than merely becoming the dust that arises >> from this process. >> >> best >>
> Monica >> List Admin >> >> Monica Narula >> Sarai-CSDS >> 29 Rajpur Road >>
> Delhi 110 054 >> www.sarai.net >> >> >>
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