[Reader-list] About the list

[inder salim]

Dear All,
Quite intelligently summed up by Tapas; there is little I can add. I
see some humour in Kirdar....

What actually prompted me to write this is the  two posts by Pawan ji.
One 'the insanity of Religion' ( on terrible face of Varanasi Ghats )
the other ' on environmental disasters'.  Subject matter of both
these post have a universal appeal, and are likely to attract the
attention of general audience on the List as well. But I wonder if
these two post will be reflected back by most of the members on the
List, except those who are one with the agenda of these two.  This is
a time tested formula of the fascistic mindset; who duck, or wear a
mask as and when the situation is adverse, and wait for the right time
to hit again.

This is what terrorists do, rip the bodies in the public space, and
then, own it to gain media attention, but never describe the act.
They always avoid the nuances, akin to  pawan and Aditya, who know
that the allegation ( against Shuddha ) are untrue,  yet want to be
seen as authors of it. They will do such things again, because they
had a tremendous success with this latest truck blast.  They surely
know  how much the rest of the list is in pain. They celebrate it
while they read ( if they care to read ) others writing long mails on
logic, reason, ethics, society and the chaotic world etc. The question
is whether, we too, can celebrate in our own way ? or what is
'celebration' itself?

It is indeed difficult, but victim hood too wont 'perform'  beyond a
point, on behalf of  that unperformable, which Judith Butler calls '
performativity'. This is my area of interest right now. I want to
operate on  long term basis,  on the List and beyond,  as long as I am
living, and even after death….

Monica's expression 'world is opaque' is very profound, because when
we perform, on the stage, on the street, or write a piece on the list,
we go through ' a forced recitation of the norms' as  Judith Butler
emphasises again.

'Performativity consists in reiteration of norms which precede,
constrain and exceed the performer, and in that sense cannot be taken
as the fabrication of the performers sweet will or choice… further
what is performed works to conceal, what remains opaque, unconscious,
unperformable'.

( not to contradict ) but, If concealment is performance; then, take a
person, whose name is inder salim, and who does nude on the streets,
damages his own body on the dead river side, works with shit of the
other, does photograph, thinks of saints and poetry, writes on the
List,  ( provokes Pawan and Aditya ) writes on the blog,  works to
earn two square meals, ( family ) loves the very idea of sex ( sex
without sex ), hazy and sceptic and calls himself performance artist
as well….blah, blah…

Well, given the understanding that ' world is opaque' and its sum
total is  unperformable, and my 'doing'  ( a maverick ), a forced
recitation of norms which precede. Ah, how each plot of each action is
thick, and how much I see,  and how much media can show me ? (
remember the Aurshi case ). No, I trust the media ( other ) as well,
because I have no option, because I have to perform, which I know, is
not for making things transparent, but to arrive at some singularity,
which is truth as well.

"The reduction of performativity to performance would be a mistake".
Judith Butler.

So, the available material ( archival/media/memory ) helps me to
perform. The ontology of the performance on the stage, on the street,
on List, would be a given ( ) , because of the norms which precede the
performance, and so whatever I will  do here on the list or beyond
will be less than what is out there, always.  It is again, my way of
arriving at the truth, it is about my inner courage to grapple with
the scattered material and memory , which includes Inder Salim's
past-present as well ( past-past).   Needless to say, that there
cannot be big claim on anything.  There are no short cuts to anything…
( Pawan and Aditya too know that ), and yet we can perform a short
cut….we do…we make mistakes….

   Here, we have an OTHER, out there and inside as well.  But the
relation with this other ( here, Pawan and Aditya ) is a 'short cut'
versus 'long term' relation,  so twisted, and see how what J.P Sartre
says about twisted relation:
"People thought that the relation with the other were always
poisonous, that they were always forbidden relations. But I meant
something  quite different. I meant that if the relation with the
other are twisted, then the other can be hell, … the other is
fundamentally, what is important in ourselves, in our own
understanding of ourselves".
 Sartre was well know for his objection to the artist  as someone who
is playing the role of a witness.  When the whole world is a big big
chaos,  ( opaque ) then how to sit, somewhere, and see it from
outside. So, in that sense there is no other, because we all are
drifting in the same boat, of chaos, but for those who see, that world
can be sorted out though short cut performances, inevitably side with
fascism ( absolute believers).  Because this river must be flowing at
different speeds at different levels.  One straw on the surface, and
the other near the bottom can reach different destinations.  Both the
straws are performing their own singularities, both are right and yet
both can  not be the same. Both, need to understand that the river is
unperformable, the unconscious, the opaque world, hence a need to slow
down, a need to be 'simple' towards 'the other', that must be a long
term relation too….

I usually write ' singular-i-tease' instead of singularities, simply
because there is some performance within the writing of this piece or
any other.

If the ' singular '  part is left to deal with that unperformable,
then the ' tease' part was all about Pwan and Aditya. Yes, I tease
them, because they too do it in their own way.  The only question that
remains is who wants to set a long term relation with the river and
who want a short term relation with the river ( the unperformable ) .
The List is just a stage to perform….. performers  will come and
go…decide

With love
Inder salim




On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Gargi Sen <sen.gargi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Kirdar, Tapas, dear all,
> I have been very fascinated by two contrasting mahabharat (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata) characters for their boldness and
> its lack: Bhim the strong and Yudhisthir the vacillator, procrastinator,
> thinker...
> But tell me who is the bold of the two? What is a bold decision? To wage a
> war or to insist on locating options to negotiate and defuse conflict while
> knowing that any such act will be construed as weak?
> Who is bold? Who wins in a war?
>
> And why should a moderator have to be a monitor? Why is the refusal, to
> consciously separate the two roles and not accept one of them, not bold?
>
> In any case as readers, and in my case a lurker too, how can my presence/
> absence be decided by someone else? I choose to belong or not ­ and Messrs.
> Aditya and Pawan have made many petulant threats to leave and not left ­ but
> that choice is theirs too, as mine. But I think the choice ends there ­ I
> can belong or not, ignore or listen, talk or be silent but to put conditions
> for my belonging, that I will belong only if such and such persons ­ however
> repugnant they may be to me - are removed, seems a bit odd with the very
> nature of a collective space for thought.
>
> I am afraid too that such demands resonate with, and reflect the Brahminical
> worldview that believes it is both legitimate and entitled to curtail and
> regulate who can participate and who can not. In debates, in society, in
> property and in life.
>
> Warmly,
> Gargi Sen
>
> PS: Meanwhile dear Aditya and Pawan, please furnish proof that Shuddha and
> Arti are paid to write on the Sarai list.
>
> On 13/11/08 10:29 PM, "Kirdar" <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear all You folks really have so much time and patience to write
>> philosophical explanations about your inability to take a bold decision, that
>> I myself have a doubt that you are being "paid to write these". It was fun
>> being on Sarai. May be I will join back after a few decades. Thanks for
>> everything. Kirdar On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Tapas Ray
>> <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote: > Monica, > > It is, of course, your prerogative
>> to decide whether the likes of Pawan > and Aditya should be expelled or not.
>> But I would like to repeat - > because I would request you to consider - a
>> couple of things I have said > recently and had said two or three years ago
>> (maybe earlier) when this > whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I
>> remember) throwing in the > cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to
>> stop repeating the same > "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few
>> others in that > enterprise. > > After this had gone on for what then seemed
>> like an eternity and now in > hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said
>> that the expulsion of > these people should be considered, because it was
>> clear they had no > interest in rational critical debate and were determined
>> to disrupt such > debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my
>> understanding) > had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they
>> had no > business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the
>> only > possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive
>> measures > like expulsion were not acceptable. > > I had pointed out that the
>> Nazis had used democracy to disrupt democracy > and communist parties had been
>> taking part in elections and getting > elected in multiparty systems with the
>> long-term goal of replacing that > very system with dictatorship. In other
>> words, there ought to be a limit > up to which such forces can be allowed to
>> operate freely. If not, that > freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>> > > The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today, >
>> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse > globally
>> and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have > noted, and is
>> likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have > noted. I agree with you
>> - if we go back to the Great Depression and the > rise of fascists and Nazis,
>> we will see why. And it's there that we come > back to the question of our
>> list. > > Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
>> > Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their >
>> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or > concepts?
>> No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our > minds? No.
>> Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood the > list with
>> their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they > want to achieve?
>> My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some > of us to unsubscribe
>> in disgust, and effectively take over the list. Why > do they spend so much
>> time and energy on this? My answer is, they see > some value in it - they know
>> that this list has earned respect as a > liberal/progressive forum hosting
>> some high-quality discussions (along > with their venom) and they want to
>> snuff it out for that very reason. > > The question remains, why? The simple
>> answer - in my opinion - is that > these members are (as we have stated
>> recently) part of the fascist creep > we have seen in India, which is becoming
>> a thrust with every passing > day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even
>> in Gujarat, or in the > recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller
>> riots and pogroms > during these years, we should perhaps see it in the
>> revelation that some > army officers have been involved in terrorist
>> activities. Some of us > will probably object to my characterization. For
>> their benefit I am > quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins
>> Dictionary of > Sociology. > > "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent
>> element of the ideology ... > The following are some of the main constituents
>> in fascist writings and > actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with
>> territorial expansion; > virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of
>> most other > political ideologies and independent working-class organizations;
>> the > open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against these
>> > groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful > leadership,
>> and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and > depending on
>> continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the > leadership; the
>> glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed > masculine virtues,
>> with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters > of men; predominant
>> support from the middle classes who are the main, > though not exclusive, mass
>> support." > > The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason
>> alone? My > answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it. > > Tapas >
>> > > > Monica Narula wrote: >> Dear All >> >> I think its rather cute the way
>> dear everyone is asking for an >> intervention from the admin - now
>> increasingly feeling like a class >> monitor! >> >> The coming years are going
>> to be a difficult ones. There is going to >> be a massive drop in employment
>> opportunities, liquidity will fall, >> infrastructure will remain half-built
>> etc. There will also be an >> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am
>> guessing, will lead to an >> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and
>> exclusive >> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game
>> and >> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I >>
>> am a little ambivalent about. >> >> I request list members to be aware that
>> making charges without >> substantial ground is more to do with incitement
>> than to do with >> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come
>> to term >> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
>> >> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some >>
>> votaries. >> >> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>> >> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of >> accusations
>> and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think >> how to deal with
>> language, and what it says, in what can feel like a >> crumbling world, rather
>> than merely becoming the dust that arises >> from this process. >> >> best >>
>> Monica >> List Admin >> >> Monica Narula >> Sarai-CSDS >> 29 Rajpur Road >>
>> Delhi 110 054 >> www.sarai.net >> >> >>
>> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion
>> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe:
>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject
>> header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >
>> _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion
>> list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send
>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject
>> header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list
>> on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email
>> to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To
>> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive:
>> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>



-- 

http://indersalim.livejournal.com