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[Pawan Durani]

Fatima ,

You are wrong !

Please start thinking and reading again.

What Yasir wrote was that KP's needed to be removed and sent to PK .It was
not me who had anything like Kashmiri Pandit in my mind.

I never said anyone who hates Kashmiri Pandits , perhaps like you , should
be evicted. You have a right to hate anyone, as do I.

The problem is that you are very crafty in putting words in others mouth and
provoking people to react and at the same time diverting from the main
content.

And in this case it was Mr Tapas who called me a fascist creep and Mr Inder
who compared us to terrorists.

Regards

A fascist terror creep




On 11/14/08, Fatima फ़ातिमा <fatimaschool45 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Shuddha
> Of course I know that. You probably didn't see the last para of Pawan's
> mail where he sarcastically says:
>
> "I would not ask Mr Yasir of whether he should not be thankful to SARAI
> group
> hosted from India of being hospitable in true Indian traditions to have him
> here instead of asking SARAI to be hospitable of ejecting me from the
> group."
>
> By this he means that all Pakistanis (or Bangladeshis) are anti-Kashmiri
> Pundit, and have no right to being on the list, but it is our big heart that
> we are tolerating them. Isn't that true Pawan?
>
> Fatima
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
>
>>  Dear Fatima,
>>
>>
>> What's there to be thankful about? The reader list has never defined
>> itself along lines of nationality.  The 'indians' here are not hosts, and
>> the rest guests. We are all guests in each others time and attention.This is
>> not an 'Indian' list. Nor is it a list with any specific bias for or against
>> any nationality. In fact the question of nationality is irrelevant here. I
>> don't see how being 'Indian', or anything else should make any difference to
>> being on the list,
>>
>>
>> regards
>>
>>
>> Shuddha
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 14-Nov-08, at 3:06 PM, Fatima फ़ातिमा wrote:
>>
>> Yes Pawanji,
>> All foreigners (like Yasir Pakistani, and Naeem Bangladeshis, Britta
>> European and others) should be thankful to Sarai for allowing them to be its
>> members. In true Indian tradition, we allow all anti-nationals here - we
>> have a big heart.
>>
>> Fatima
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I strongly believe that no one should be told to hold back. I do not mind
>>> being called a fascist or a creep by Tapas nor do I mind being compared
>>> with
>>> terrorists by Inder .
>>>
>>> There is a difference when people express themselves , thier intentions
>>> and
>>> ideology. When Aditya wrote "Dumbocracy" , he was blunt , however what is
>>> being exhibited here by Mr Tapas and Mr Inder is exactly a reflection of
>>> what Aditya wrote.
>>>
>>> Having said that , I would love to see more reactions from these
>>> gentlemen.
>>> I do not and would not write back the same classy words they chose ., nor
>>> would i ask Mr Tapas his intention of defaming hindu community in
>>> disguise
>>> of being secular . I would not ask him what holds him back of not
>>> mentioning
>>> destruction of temples in Kashmir when he choose to mention Babri
>>> structure
>>> - Ram Mandir and neither would I ask him why he does not write burning of
>>> train in Godhra while mentioning terrible events in Gujarat. I would not
>>> ask
>>> him if he has memory failing in both of these ? I would not ask him why
>>> he
>>> does not balance what he writes.
>>>
>>> Inder Ji is a member of my KP community and I have many times tried to
>>> avoid
>>> replying back to him . As you understand we are a very small community
>>> and
>>> chances of interacting or meeting each other is high . It would be sad
>>> that
>>> we have a history of fights should we meet each other in future . However
>>> I
>>> would not ask him , what makes him think we are like terrorists , is it
>>> just
>>> we tell our 'victim' story and are still proud of being a Kashmiri Pandit
>>> .
>>> I would not ask him why he takes liberties of his art on those things
>>> which
>>> we hold in high esteem. He may have an answer that nude art may have been
>>> there in ancient hindu temples , but would Mr Inder be kind enough to
>>> share
>>> if the art did exist in martand temple in Kashmir , where Mr Inder did
>>> his
>>> own nude photography ? What may hold good in a Dargah may not hold good
>>> in a
>>> masjid . You don't find Qawaalis sung in mosques .....is it not ? I would
>>> not ask Mr Inder that again in the name of art what made him split a
>>> picture
>>> of Durga Goddess in two [ http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ ] . I would
>>> not
>>> ask him if he has ever wondered that his art may be hurting someone ?
>>>
>>> I would still not ask those whole group of people , apart from Mr Shuddha
>>> ,
>>> why have they remained silent on wordings of Mr Tapas and Mr Inder and
>>> whether they approve of thhose words or not ?
>>>
>>> I would not ask Mr Yasir of whether he should not be thankful to SARAI
>>> group
>>> hosted from India of being hospitable in true Indian traditions to have
>>> him
>>> here instead of asking SARAI to be hospitable of ejecting me from the
>>> group.
>>>
>>> For If i ask these two gentlemen , I would be a creep fascist ?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Pawan Durani
>>> This is my last mail on this subject.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/14/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your
>>> > language. Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist
>>> > creep'. The point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on
>>> now.
>>> > Please do not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people
>>> > fascists. No political formation in India today is free of
>>> authoritarian and
>>> > fascist tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to
>>> > confront fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic
>>> culture
>>> > that privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to
>>> combat
>>> > fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we become
>>> > exactly like them.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own
>>> commitment
>>> > to this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all
>>> points
>>> > of view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang up
>>> on
>>> > anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others before.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > regards
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Shuddha
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >  On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
>>> >
>>> >  On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in my
>>> >
>>> > opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently) part
>>> of
>>> > the
>>> >
>>> > fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with
>>> every
>>> >
>>> > passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Tapas,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member
>>> reacted.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Pawan
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >  Monica,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan
>>> >
>>> > and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
>>> >
>>> > because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have
>>> said
>>> >
>>> > recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this
>>> >
>>> > whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in
>>> the
>>> >
>>> > cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same
>>> >
>>> > "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
>>> >
>>> > enterprise.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in
>>> >
>>> > hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
>>> >
>>> > these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
>>> >
>>> > interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt
>>> such
>>> >
>>> > debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my
>>> understanding)
>>> >
>>> > had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
>>> >
>>> > business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the
>>> only
>>> >
>>> > possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive
>>> measures
>>> >
>>> > like expulsion were not acceptable.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt
>>> democracy
>>> >
>>> > and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
>>> >
>>> > elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that
>>> >
>>> > very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a
>>> limit
>>> >
>>> > up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that
>>> >
>>> > freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today,
>>> >
>>> > but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
>>> >
>>> > globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have
>>> >
>>> > noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
>>> >
>>> > noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the
>>> >
>>> > rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we
>>> come
>>> >
>>> > back to the question of our list.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
>>> >
>>> > Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
>>> >
>>> > discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
>>> >
>>> > concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our
>>> >
>>> > minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood
>>> the
>>> >
>>> > list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
>>> >
>>> > want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some
>>> >
>>> > of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list.
>>> Why
>>> >
>>> > do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
>>> >
>>> > some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
>>> >
>>> > liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along
>>> >
>>> > with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that
>>> >
>>> > these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist
>>> creep
>>> >
>>> > we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
>>> >
>>> > day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
>>> >
>>> > recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms
>>> >
>>> > during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that
>>> some
>>> >
>>> > army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
>>> >
>>> > will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
>>> >
>>> > quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of
>>> >
>>> > Sociology.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ...
>>> >
>>> > The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and
>>> >
>>> > actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion;
>>> >
>>> > virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
>>> >
>>> > political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
>>> >
>>> > open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against
>>> these
>>> >
>>> > groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
>>> >
>>> > leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
>>> >
>>> > depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
>>> >
>>> > leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
>>> >
>>> > masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters
>>> >
>>> > of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
>>> >
>>> > though not exclusive, mass support."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My
>>> >
>>> > answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Tapas
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Monica Narula wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Dear All
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
>>> >
>>> > intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
>>> >
>>> > monitor!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
>>> >
>>> > be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
>>> >
>>> > infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
>>> >
>>> > increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
>>> >
>>> > aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
>>> >
>>> > authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
>>> >
>>> > the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
>>> >
>>> > am a little ambivalent about.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I request list members to be aware that making charges without
>>> >
>>> > substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
>>> >
>>> > discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
>>> >
>>> > with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
>>> >
>>> > directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some
>>> >
>>> > votaries.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>>> >
>>> > increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
>>> >
>>> > accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
>>> >
>>> > how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
>>> >
>>> > crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
>>> >
>>> > from this process.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > best
>>> >
>>> > Monica
>>> >
>>> > List Admin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Monica Narula
>>> >
>>> > Sarai-CSDS
>>> >
>>> > 29 Rajpur Road
>>> >
>>> > Delhi 110 054
>>> >
>>> > www.sarai.net
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _________________________________________
>>> >
>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> >
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>>> >
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>>> >
>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> >
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>>> >
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>>> >
>>> > _________________________________________
>>> >
>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> >
>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>> >
>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> >
>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> >
>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> >
>>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>> >
>>> > _________________________________________
>>> >
>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> >
>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>> >
>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> >
>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> >
>>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >  Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>> >
>>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>> >
>>> > Raqs Media Collective
>>> >
>>> > shuddha at sarai.net
>>> >
>>> > www.sarai.net
>>> >
>>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> _________________________________________
>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>
>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>
>> Raqs Media Collective
>>
>> shuddha at sarai.net
>>
>> www.sarai.net
>>
>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>