[Reader-list] About the list

inder salim indersalim at gmail.com
Fri Nov 14 17:55:52 IST 2008 

you see pawan,

i will reply in detail, again and again,  ( even, i have done many
times already  ) but , just  provide proof to the allegations against
Shuddha , i will take all the  arguments back, i will give u a bharat
Ratna along with MF  Hussain.

i mean it, as and when i will become Prime Minister of India.

but for the sake of love,
please please provide the proof,

or simply say there were none, say sorry, ( which i know u wont )

say something, u and aditya have lost credibility because of false
allegations, ( i forget spitting and  other crap ) so come our
bravely, come on young boy, come out  comrade, this is right time,

else,  i have all the rights to ignore ur mails

love
is


On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> Fatima ,
>
> You are wrong !
>
> Please start thinking and reading again.
>
> What Yasir wrote was that KP's needed to be removed and sent to PK .It was
> not me who had anything like Kashmiri Pandit in my mind.
>
> I never said anyone who hates Kashmiri Pandits , perhaps like you , should
> be evicted. You have a right to hate anyone, as do I.
>
> The problem is that you are very crafty in putting words in others mouth and
> provoking people to react and at the same time diverting from the main
> content.
>
> And in this case it was Mr Tapas who called me a fascist creep and Mr Inder
> who compared us to terrorists.
>
> Regards
>
> A fascist terror creep
>
>
>
>
> On 11/14/08, Fatima फ़ातिमा <fatimaschool45 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Shuddha
>> Of course I know that. You probably didn't see the last para of Pawan's
>> mail where he sarcastically says:
>>
>> "I would not ask Mr Yasir of whether he should not be thankful to SARAI
>> group
>> hosted from India of being hospitable in true Indian traditions to have him
>> here instead of asking SARAI to be hospitable of ejecting me from the
>> group."
>>
>> By this he means that all Pakistanis (or Bangladeshis) are anti-Kashmiri
>> Pundit, and have no right to being on the list, but it is our big heart that
>> we are tolerating them. Isn't that true Pawan?
>>
>> Fatima
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>wrote:
>>
>>>  Dear Fatima,
>>>
>>>
>>> What's there to be thankful about? The reader list has never defined
>>> itself along lines of nationality.  The 'indians' here are not hosts, and
>>> the rest guests. We are all guests in each others time and attention.This is
>>> not an 'Indian' list. Nor is it a list with any specific bias for or against
>>> any nationality. In fact the question of nationality is irrelevant here. I
>>> don't see how being 'Indian', or anything else should make any difference to
>>> being on the list,
>>>
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>>
>>> Shuddha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On 14-Nov-08, at 3:06 PM, Fatima फ़ातिमा wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes Pawanji,
>>> All foreigners (like Yasir Pakistani, and Naeem Bangladeshis, Britta
>>> European and others) should be thankful to Sarai for allowing them to be its
>>> members. In true Indian tradition, we allow all anti-nationals here - we
>>> have a big heart.
>>>
>>> Fatima
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I strongly believe that no one should be told to hold back. I do not mind
>>>> being called a fascist or a creep by Tapas nor do I mind being compared
>>>> with
>>>> terrorists by Inder .
>>>>
>>>> There is a difference when people express themselves , thier intentions
>>>> and
>>>> ideology. When Aditya wrote "Dumbocracy" , he was blunt , however what is
>>>> being exhibited here by Mr Tapas and Mr Inder is exactly a reflection of
>>>> what Aditya wrote.
>>>>
>>>> Having said that , I would love to see more reactions from these
>>>> gentlemen.
>>>> I do not and would not write back the same classy words they chose ., nor
>>>> would i ask Mr Tapas his intention of defaming hindu community in
>>>> disguise
>>>> of being secular . I would not ask him what holds him back of not
>>>> mentioning
>>>> destruction of temples in Kashmir when he choose to mention Babri
>>>> structure
>>>> - Ram Mandir and neither would I ask him why he does not write burning of
>>>> train in Godhra while mentioning terrible events in Gujarat. I would not
>>>> ask
>>>> him if he has memory failing in both of these ? I would not ask him why
>>>> he
>>>> does not balance what he writes.
>>>>
>>>> Inder Ji is a member of my KP community and I have many times tried to
>>>> avoid
>>>> replying back to him . As you understand we are a very small community
>>>> and
>>>> chances of interacting or meeting each other is high . It would be sad
>>>> that
>>>> we have a history of fights should we meet each other in future . However
>>>> I
>>>> would not ask him , what makes him think we are like terrorists , is it
>>>> just
>>>> we tell our 'victim' story and are still proud of being a Kashmiri Pandit
>>>> .
>>>> I would not ask him why he takes liberties of his art on those things
>>>> which
>>>> we hold in high esteem. He may have an answer that nude art may have been
>>>> there in ancient hindu temples , but would Mr Inder be kind enough to
>>>> share
>>>> if the art did exist in martand temple in Kashmir , where Mr Inder did
>>>> his
>>>> own nude photography ? What may hold good in a Dargah may not hold good
>>>> in a
>>>> masjid . You don't find Qawaalis sung in mosques .....is it not ? I would
>>>> not ask Mr Inder that again in the name of art what made him split a
>>>> picture
>>>> of Durga Goddess in two [ http://indersalim.livejournal.com/ ] . I would
>>>> not
>>>> ask him if he has ever wondered that his art may be hurting someone ?
>>>>
>>>> I would still not ask those whole group of people , apart from Mr Shuddha
>>>> ,
>>>> why have they remained silent on wordings of Mr Tapas and Mr Inder and
>>>> whether they approve of thhose words or not ?
>>>>
>>>> I would not ask Mr Yasir of whether he should not be thankful to SARAI
>>>> group
>>>> hosted from India of being hospitable in true Indian traditions to have
>>>> him
>>>> here instead of asking SARAI to be hospitable of ejecting me from the
>>>> group.
>>>>
>>>> For If i ask these two gentlemen , I would be a creep fascist ?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Pawan Durani
>>>> This is my last mail on this subject.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/14/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your
>>>> > language. Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist
>>>> > creep'. The point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on
>>>> now.
>>>> > Please do not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people
>>>> > fascists. No political formation in India today is free of
>>>> authoritarian and
>>>> > fascist tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to
>>>> > confront fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic
>>>> culture
>>>> > that privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to
>>>> combat
>>>> > fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we become
>>>> > exactly like them.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own
>>>> commitment
>>>> > to this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all
>>>> points
>>>> > of view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang up
>>>> on
>>>> > anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others before.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > regards
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Shuddha
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >  On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >  On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in my
>>>> >
>>>> > opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently) part
>>>> of
>>>> > the
>>>> >
>>>> > fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with
>>>> every
>>>> >
>>>> > passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Tapas,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member
>>>> reacted.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Pawan
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >  Monica,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan
>>>> >
>>>> > and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
>>>> >
>>>> > because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have
>>>> said
>>>> >
>>>> > recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this
>>>> >
>>>> > whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in
>>>> the
>>>> >
>>>> > cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same
>>>> >
>>>> > "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
>>>> >
>>>> > enterprise.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in
>>>> >
>>>> > hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
>>>> >
>>>> > these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
>>>> >
>>>> > interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt
>>>> such
>>>> >
>>>> > debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my
>>>> understanding)
>>>> >
>>>> > had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
>>>> >
>>>> > business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the
>>>> only
>>>> >
>>>> > possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive
>>>> measures
>>>> >
>>>> > like expulsion were not acceptable.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt
>>>> democracy
>>>> >
>>>> > and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
>>>> >
>>>> > elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that
>>>> >
>>>> > very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a
>>>> limit
>>>> >
>>>> > up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that
>>>> >
>>>> > freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today,
>>>> >
>>>> > but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
>>>> >
>>>> > globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have
>>>> >
>>>> > noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
>>>> >
>>>> > noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the
>>>> >
>>>> > rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we
>>>> come
>>>> >
>>>> > back to the question of our list.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
>>>> >
>>>> > Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
>>>> >
>>>> > discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
>>>> >
>>>> > concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our
>>>> >
>>>> > minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood
>>>> the
>>>> >
>>>> > list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
>>>> >
>>>> > want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some
>>>> >
>>>> > of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list.
>>>> Why
>>>> >
>>>> > do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
>>>> >
>>>> > some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
>>>> >
>>>> > liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along
>>>> >
>>>> > with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that
>>>> >
>>>> > these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist
>>>> creep
>>>> >
>>>> > we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
>>>> >
>>>> > day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
>>>> >
>>>> > recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms
>>>> >
>>>> > during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that
>>>> some
>>>> >
>>>> > army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
>>>> >
>>>> > will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
>>>> >
>>>> > quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of
>>>> >
>>>> > Sociology.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ...
>>>> >
>>>> > The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and
>>>> >
>>>> > actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion;
>>>> >
>>>> > virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
>>>> >
>>>> > political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
>>>> >
>>>> > open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against
>>>> these
>>>> >
>>>> > groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
>>>> >
>>>> > leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
>>>> >
>>>> > depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
>>>> >
>>>> > leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
>>>> >
>>>> > masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters
>>>> >
>>>> > of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
>>>> >
>>>> > though not exclusive, mass support."
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My
>>>> >
>>>> > answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Tapas
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Monica Narula wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear All
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
>>>> >
>>>> > intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
>>>> >
>>>> > monitor!
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
>>>> >
>>>> > be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
>>>> >
>>>> > infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
>>>> >
>>>> > increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
>>>> >
>>>> > aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
>>>> >
>>>> > authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
>>>> >
>>>> > the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
>>>> >
>>>> > am a little ambivalent about.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I request list members to be aware that making charges without
>>>> >
>>>> > substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
>>>> >
>>>> > discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
>>>> >
>>>> > with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
>>>> >
>>>> > directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some
>>>> >
>>>> > votaries.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>>>> >
>>>> > increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
>>>> >
>>>> > accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
>>>> >
>>>> > how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
>>>> >
>>>> > crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
>>>> >
>>>> > from this process.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > best
>>>> >
>>>> > Monica
>>>> >
>>>> > List Admin
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Monica Narula
>>>> >
>>>> > Sarai-CSDS
>>>> >
>>>> > 29 Rajpur Road
>>>> >
>>>> > Delhi 110 054
>>>> >
>>>> > www.sarai.net
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> >
>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> >
>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> >
>>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> >
>>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> >
>>>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>> >
>>>> > _________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> >
>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> >
>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> >
>>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> >
>>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> >
>>>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>> >
>>>> > _________________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> >
>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> >
>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> >
>>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> >
>>>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >  Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>>> >
>>>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>>> >
>>>> > Raqs Media Collective
>>>> >
>>>> > shuddha at sarai.net
>>>> >
>>>> > www.sarai.net
>>>> >
>>>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> _________________________________________
>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>  Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>>
>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>>
>>> Raqs Media Collective
>>>
>>> shuddha at sarai.net
>>>
>>> www.sarai.net
>>>
>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>



-- 

http://indersalim.livejournal.com

More information about the reader-list mailing list