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Fri Nov 14 21:56:20 IST 2008

Shuddha,

Sorry for the confusion. I used the word creep as in "project creep",
etc. I was not calling anyone a "creep". I was talking about the
advance of fascism, which had been slow and steady for some time and
seems to be gathering momentum now, especially in light of the army
officer's involvement - which may be the tip of an iceberg. Hence
"thrust".

I appreciate your concern for bringing back a semblance of normalcy
here, but I have a couple of things to say. I agree that other
political formations in India also have authoritarian tendencies,
possibly also fascist tendencies. But their followers are not or do
not seem to be intent on - and succeeding in - taking over this space.
Secondly, I do think that the one we have on our hands here is the
most openly and determinedly fascist of them all. Thirdly, there is a
difference between their ideology and the rest's, and at this time at
least, the specific nature of their ideology makes them far more
dangerous than the rest.

I really do not see what purpose is served by calling fascism by
another name. It is, and will be, a rose. It is necessary to use
labels at times like this. If you do not, you will not know what
exactly it is that you are dealing with. These demarcations express
certain qualities that are unique to or predominant in a certain
constellation of theory/ies and practice/s, and thus set them apart
from other constellations. It is a matter of difference. A certain
color is called pink and another brick in the English language,
although they are not far from each other on the same small segment of
the electromagnetic spectrum. I am sure other languages have a
different set of names for a different set of colors, i.e., different
points, or different more or less narrowly demarcated bands of the
spectrum.

I also appreciate your concern for open and free exchange of ideas.
But I am unable to resolve the contradiction between absolute freedom
and the freedom for some to curb the freedom of others. However, this
contradiction was resolved long ago by accepting - and inscribing in
the constitutions of various countries professing democracy - the
principle that there can be no absolute freedom, and it is necessary
to curb some freedoms of some people in order not to put others'
freedoms in jeopardy. Which freedoms are curbed for protecting which
other freedoms, is a decision made through power relations - whether
you believes power resides in class or some other social group, or is
dispersed.

If we are to ensure absolute freedom in this space, we will need to
conceive it as one that lies outside power relations, which it can
never do. Though "virtual", It is very much part of the real world,
simply because each member is part of the real world, with a distinct
subjectivity, and the real, physical infrastructure of this "virtual"
space is also part of the real world (CSDS). As far as I know, spaces
of discourse free of power relations have been conceived only as an
ideal types, not as a real possibility. If refraining from using the
word "fascist" helps us experiment with it in real life, I will be
happy to do so. In fact, I am going to stop using the word with this
message, and watch how things go.

However, I urge you to remember something Inder has pointed out - when
things get a little too messy, these people put on a pleasant, smiling
mask and seek to divert others' attention to things that resonate with
those others - say, the environment, or the Iraq war. The only thing
that changes is their tactic from blunt to subtle (hence more
insidious), namely dividing their opponents by seeming to play by the
"rules".

Best,

Tapas

2008/11/14 Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>:
> Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
>
> I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your language.
> Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist creep'. The
> point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on now. Please do
> not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people fascists. No
> political formation in India today is free of authoritarian and fascist
> tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to confront
> fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic culture that
> privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to combat
> fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we become
> exactly like them.
>
> Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own commitment to
> this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all points of
> view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang up on
> anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others before.
>
> regards
>
> Shuddha
>
> On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
>
> On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in my
>
> opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the
>
> fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every
>
> passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Tapas,
>
> Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member reacted.
>
> Pawan
>
>
>
> Monica,
>
> It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan
>
> and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
>
> because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have said
>
> recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this
>
> whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in the
>
> cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same
>
> "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
>
> enterprise.
>
> After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in
>
> hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
>
> these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
>
> interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt such
>
> debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my understanding)
>
> had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
>
> business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the only
>
> possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive measures
>
> like expulsion were not acceptable.
>
> I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt democracy
>
> and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
>
> elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that
>
> very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a limit
>
> up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that
>
> freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>
> The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today,
>
> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
>
> globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have
>
> noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
>
> noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the
>
> rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we come
>
> back to the question of our list.
>
> Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
>
> Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
>
> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
>
> concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our
>
> minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood the
>
> list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
>
> want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some
>
> of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list. Why
>
> do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
>
> some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
>
> liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along
>
> with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
>
> The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that
>
> these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist creep
>
> we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
>
> day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
>
> recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms
>
> during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that some
>
> army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
>
> will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
>
> quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of
>
> Sociology.
>
> "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ...
>
> The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and
>
> actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion;
>
> virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
>
> political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
>
> open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against these
>
> groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
>
> leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
>
> depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
>
> leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
>
> masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters
>
> of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
>
> though not exclusive, mass support."
>
> The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My
>
> answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
>
> Tapas
>
>
> Monica Narula wrote:
>
> Dear All
>
> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
>
> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
>
> monitor!
>
> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
>
> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
>
> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
>
> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
>
> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
>
> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
>
> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
>
> am a little ambivalent about.
>
> I request list members to be aware that making charges without
>
> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
>
> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
>
> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
>
> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some
>
> votaries.
>
> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>
> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
>
> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
>
> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
>
> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
>
> from this process.
>
> best
>
> Monica
>
> List Admin
>
> Monica Narula
>
> Sarai-CSDS
>
> 29 Rajpur Road
>
> Delhi 110 054
>
> www.sarai.net
>
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> _________________________________________
>
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>
> Critiques & Collaborations
>
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>
> subscribe in the subject header.
>
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>
> _________________________________________
>
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>
> Critiques & Collaborations
>
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe
> in the subject header.
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> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>
> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>
> Raqs Media Collective
>
> shuddha at sarai.net
>
> www.sarai.net
>
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>