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inder salim indersalim at gmail.com
Fri Nov 14 23:06:20 IST 2008 

Dear Pawan, and dear Aditya,

In this very interesting chain of mails started by a profound post by
Monica, I had reflected twice already. There is a huge contrast in the
way I wrote these latest two, but, as I have marked earlier as well,
both of you ignore the nuance.  The latest one was a sort of trap for
both of you, but, like Arjuna, all you want to see  is the eye of the
bird in the tree.

My latest was a sample of how you write to others, how you provoke,
abuse and spit on others. The words ' come on' come one, comrade, and
Bharat Ratna to  both of you by Inder Salim as Prime Minister' it was
all theatre,  but you could not see the purpose  hidden between the
lines.  How naïve, that you educate me about the imperative of MP
before  PM.  Anyway,  I am still at in mood to play it further, so
watch out:

Yes, I wont take you again to that  ' performance and performativity'
thing, of which I am myself a small student, but I will make a small
skit, please join me.
 (  Dear Partha, I need you for a small role, please ).
…………………………………………………………

Characters:
1. Aditya ( a young boy aged 11, in khakhi short pants and light blue shirt )
2. Pawan ( a young boy  aged 10, in kahahi short pants and light blue shrrt )
3. Inder salim ( a young boy aged 14, in khakhi short pants and light
blue shrt )
4. Partha Dasgupta ( a teacher, in a simple pant and shirt )

 ( scene on the stage: Aditya  has grabbed the collar of  Inder, while
Pawan has tightly grabbed the belt of Inder's short pants . Inder has
grabbed the collor of  both Aditya  and Pawan ). All the three  are in
action.

Some sticks, mask of Gandhi is lying on the floor,  besides some ink,
paper,caps and beards and other costume as well. Text on the black
board: What is socialism, Secularism and Democracy ? some blurred math
sums underneath)

Enter : Partha, ( the teacher):  Hey, you brats, what are you doing,
leave his collar, enough of it. Inder, you are elder than both of
these two idiots, I was not expecting you to behave like this. Enough,
enough.  Now, tell me what happened.

Aditya:  Inder was spitting at me.

Pawan : yes, and he told Aditya, that Muslims are better than Hindus.

 ( as expected, Inder did not tell Partha Sir, that both, Pawan and
Aditya were trying to open his khaki short pants to see whether inder
is circumcised or not)

Inder Salim: Sir, both of them are not doing rehearsals seriously, I
just wanted them…

Partha:  Ok, OK, it was my mistake to leave you guys alone in this
room. You were supposed to do the rehearsals for the show on friday.

Inder Salim: But sir, this Gandhi mask is broken,

Aditya, : I have one at my home. Shall I bring it tomorrow

Partha : no, no, you have applied lot of saffron on his forehead, I
have seen that. The time is short we have to manage without  Gandhi
mask, so just tell me who was performing Gandhi ?

Pawan: Me sir,

Partha: so, what you do, just paste, a paper on you face, with text:
Allah Iswar teray naam.  That will make you look Gandhi as well.

Inder Salim: That is fine, sir

Aditya : but sir, he was also saying Rama , Rama Rama  all the time,
why not write that instead of Allah Ishwar

Partha :  Shut up, you  ( bewakaoof ) idiot. Inder,  you just remember
your lines  of Jinnah perfectly, and ensure that there are no fights.
If you repeat it again, I will expel all the three of you from this
play. Remember,  Aditya, you are playing Nathu Ram Godse, right,
 oh, the time is too short and there are no student around to play
other roles, so you have to rotate and play other roles too, quick,
start, i am coming back

Exit :  Partha, The three young student are looking at each other.
Inder Salim is trying to fix the broken Gandhi mask, Pawan and Aditya
are helping him.

First scene ends.
To be continued….
(  Aditya and pawan are invited to write the second scene )









On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:
> Shuddha,
>
> Sorry for the confusion. I used the word creep as in "project creep",
> etc. I was not calling anyone a "creep". I was talking about the
> advance of fascism, which had been slow and steady for some time and
> seems to be gathering momentum now, especially in light of the army
> officer's involvement - which may be the tip of an iceberg. Hence
> "thrust".
>
> I appreciate your concern for bringing back a semblance of normalcy
> here, but I have a couple of things to say. I agree that other
> political formations in India also have authoritarian tendencies,
> possibly also fascist tendencies. But their followers are not or do
> not seem to be intent on - and succeeding in - taking over this space.
> Secondly, I do think that the one we have on our hands here is the
> most openly and determinedly fascist of them all. Thirdly, there is a
> difference between their ideology and the rest's, and at this time at
> least, the specific nature of their ideology makes them far more
> dangerous than the rest.
>
> I really do not see what purpose is served by calling fascism by
> another name. It is, and will be, a rose. It is necessary to use
> labels at times like this. If you do not, you will not know what
> exactly it is that you are dealing with. These demarcations express
> certain qualities that are unique to or predominant in a certain
> constellation of theory/ies and practice/s, and thus set them apart
> from other constellations. It is a matter of difference. A certain
> color is called pink and another brick in the English language,
> although they are not far from each other on the same small segment of
> the electromagnetic spectrum. I am sure other languages have a
> different set of names for a different set of colors, i.e., different
> points, or different more or less narrowly demarcated bands of the
> spectrum.
>
> I also appreciate your concern for open and free exchange of ideas.
> But I am unable to resolve the contradiction between absolute freedom
> and the freedom for some to curb the freedom of others. However, this
> contradiction was resolved long ago by accepting - and inscribing in
> the constitutions of various countries professing democracy - the
> principle that there can be no absolute freedom, and it is necessary
> to curb some freedoms of some people in order not to put others'
> freedoms in jeopardy. Which freedoms are curbed for protecting which
> other freedoms, is a decision made through power relations - whether
> you believes power resides in class or some other social group, or is
> dispersed.
>
> If we are to ensure absolute freedom in this space, we will need to
> conceive it as one that lies outside power relations, which it can
> never do. Though "virtual", It is very much part of the real world,
> simply because each member is part of the real world, with a distinct
> subjectivity, and the real, physical infrastructure of this "virtual"
> space is also part of the real world (CSDS). As far as I know, spaces
> of discourse free of power relations have been conceived only as an
> ideal types, not as a real possibility. If refraining from using the
> word "fascist" helps us experiment with it in real life, I will be
> happy to do so. In fact, I am going to stop using the word with this
> message, and watch how things go.
>
> However, I urge you to remember something Inder has pointed out - when
> things get a little too messy, these people put on a pleasant, smiling
> mask and seek to divert others' attention to things that resonate with
> those others - say, the environment, or the Iraq war. The only thing
> that changes is their tactic from blunt to subtle (hence more
> insidious), namely dividing their opponents by seeming to play by the
> "rules".
>
> Best,
>
> Tapas
>
>
>
> 2008/11/14 Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>:
>> Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
>>
>> I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your language.
>> Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist creep'. The
>> point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on now. Please do
>> not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people fascists. No
>> political formation in India today is free of authoritarian and fascist
>> tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to confront
>> fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic culture that
>> privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to combat
>> fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we become
>> exactly like them.
>>
>> Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own commitment to
>> this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all points of
>> view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang up on
>> anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others before.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Shuddha
>>
>> On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
>>
>> On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in my
>>
>> opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the
>>
>> fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every
>>
>> passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>> Tapas,
>>
>> Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member reacted.
>>
>> Pawan
>>
>>
>>
>> Monica,
>>
>> It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan
>>
>> and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
>>
>> because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have said
>>
>> recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this
>>
>> whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in the
>>
>> cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same
>>
>> "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
>>
>> enterprise.
>>
>> After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in
>>
>> hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
>>
>> these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
>>
>> interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt such
>>
>> debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my understanding)
>>
>> had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
>>
>> business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the only
>>
>> possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive measures
>>
>> like expulsion were not acceptable.
>>
>> I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt democracy
>>
>> and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
>>
>> elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that
>>
>> very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a limit
>>
>> up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that
>>
>> freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>>
>> The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today,
>>
>> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
>>
>> globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have
>>
>> noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
>>
>> noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the
>>
>> rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we come
>>
>> back to the question of our list.
>>
>> Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
>>
>> Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
>>
>> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
>>
>> concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our
>>
>> minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood the
>>
>> list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
>>
>> want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some
>>
>> of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list. Why
>>
>> do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
>>
>> some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
>>
>> liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along
>>
>> with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
>>
>> The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that
>>
>> these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist creep
>>
>> we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
>>
>> day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
>>
>> recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms
>>
>> during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that some
>>
>> army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
>>
>> will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
>>
>> quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of
>>
>> Sociology.
>>
>> "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ...
>>
>> The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and
>>
>> actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion;
>>
>> virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
>>
>> political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
>>
>> open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against these
>>
>> groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
>>
>> leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
>>
>> depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
>>
>> leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
>>
>> masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters
>>
>> of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
>>
>> though not exclusive, mass support."
>>
>> The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My
>>
>> answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
>>
>> Tapas
>>
>>
>> Monica Narula wrote:
>>
>> Dear All
>>
>> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
>>
>> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
>>
>> monitor!
>>
>> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
>>
>> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
>>
>> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
>>
>> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
>>
>> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
>>
>> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
>>
>> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
>>
>> am a little ambivalent about.
>>
>> I request list members to be aware that making charges without
>>
>> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
>>
>> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
>>
>> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
>>
>> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some
>>
>> votaries.
>>
>> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>>
>> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
>>
>> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
>>
>> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
>>
>> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
>>
>> from this process.
>>
>> best
>>
>> Monica
>>
>> List Admin
>>
>> Monica Narula
>>
>> Sarai-CSDS
>>
>> 29 Rajpur Road
>>
>> Delhi 110 054
>>
>> www.sarai.net
>>
>> _________________________________________
>>
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>>
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>>
>> _________________________________________
>>
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>>
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>> _________________________________________
>>
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>>
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe
>> in the subject header.
>>
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>
>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>
>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>
>> Raqs Media Collective
>>
>> shuddha at sarai.net
>>
>> www.sarai.net
>>
>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>>
> _________________________________________
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> Critiques & Collaborations
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