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Fatima फ़ातिमा fatimaschool45 at gmail.com
Sat Nov 15 15:56:05 IST 2008 

Pawan, you haven't added any spitting-shitting from your or Aditya's side in
the script. Kuchch maza nahih aya...


On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:

> enter Javed [ A young guy wearing green shirt and a skull cap ] : Has a
> look
> at the stage and finds the waekest link , Inder. Takes Inder to corner of
> the stage and whispers something in ear.
>
> Javed : Look Sangh is Bad world . Let us do Anatomy of Sangh . [ winks
> towards Inder ].
>
> Inder : Yes , that is much needed [smiles at Javed ]
>
> Meanwhile enter Mr Ray`less [wearing red shirt and and waving a red flag
> with some symbol on it.]
>
> Ray`less : Hail China , hail Red ..........Let us all work towards
> backstabbing nationalists . I belong to a mindset which has an expertise in
> that . Let us all group together. I am confidant that on our own turf we
> can
> defeat the nationalists. We have done it many times started by betraying
> the
> nation during the quit India movement. We can stop any sane thing and bring
> the development to stop. look at WB , it has saved it's heritage as we have
> stopped it's clock.The state is just like that what my grandfather saw. [
> theough Ray`less missed the real wordings]
>
> Meanwhile in Audience a angry writer and a friend watch all this drama ,
> they know the plot of Ray`less , however for friendship and for old times
> sake they do not point out to Ray`less that he has fumbled. They let it go
> ,
> so that Ray'less is considered a good actor and a contendor for an award to
> be anounced in Beijing.
>
> Enter Inder once again
>
> Inder : Javed ..Javed ...look these Pawan and Aditya do not allow me to
> dance nude in the ancient sun temple at Martand . these foolish saffron
> people do not know art. We have been taught that art is dancing nude in
> temple , splitting Durga's picture whom millions pray to. I want to dance
> nude .
>
> Javed : [Thinking .....God .....i hope this nut does not ask me to
> accompany
> him to a Mosque for the nude dance.......who can escape a fatwa and I am no
> Salman Rushdie to get a protection ]
>
> Suddenly Javed looks at Inder
>
> Javed : Hey Inder ....come here ...i have an Idea. I have another ancient
> ruin temple for you to fulfill your fantasy .
>
> Inder : Javed Bhai , what is that ?
>
> Javed : Let us go to POK , we have the ancient Sharda temple there . The
> Goddess of learning . the temple has a good surrounding and in control of
> Pakistan Army . I would get you permission from my contacts to enter the
> place , and you can dance nude.
>
> Inder : Really ! [ overjoyed ]
>
> Enter Fatima [ Wearing a Green Scarf ]
>
> Fatima : Yes Inder , we can do anything for you .We would support you
> whatever it takes . We would be with you through your thick and thin. [
> Looks at the audience to check the reaction after dialogue delivery ].
>
> Javed : But there is a problem . It is too cold there . It's not possible
> to
> be nude there during all this cold and snowfall.
>
> Inder : Javed ,cold does not matter. It is determination to hurt the
> millions at cost of fantasy which would not stop me .....
>
> Javed : Ok ...let me call Kak to document it and roll the camera.
>
> Inder : Ok , Pls do meanwhile I would call YM and Mehbooba . I would ask
> them tro raise a demand for ' Safar E nanga Naach mandir Main'.
>
> Inder picks the phone and starts to sing : Mera mandit toota Phoote main
> nanga nachoonga........
>
>
> To be Continued.................
>
>
>
>
> On 11/14/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Pawan, and dear Aditya,
> >
> > In this very interesting chain of mails started by a profound post by
> > Monica, I had reflected twice already. There is a huge contrast in the
> > way I wrote these latest two, but, as I have marked earlier as well,
> > both of you ignore the nuance.  The latest one was a sort of trap for
> > both of you, but, like Arjuna, all you want to see  is the eye of the
> > bird in the tree.
> >
> > My latest was a sample of how you write to others, how you provoke,
> > abuse and spit on others. The words ' come on' come one, comrade, and
> > Bharat Ratna to  both of you by Inder Salim as Prime Minister' it was
> > all theatre,  but you could not see the purpose  hidden between the
> > lines.  How naïve, that you educate me about the imperative of MP
> > before  PM.  Anyway,  I am still at in mood to play it further, so
> > watch out:
> >
> > Yes, I wont take you again to that  ' performance and performativity'
> > thing, of which I am myself a small student, but I will make a small
> > skit, please join me.
> > (  Dear Partha, I need you for a small role, please ).
> > …………………………………………………………
> >
> > Characters:
> > 1. Aditya ( a young boy aged 11, in khakhi short pants and light blue
> shirt
> > )
> > 2. Pawan ( a young boy  aged 10, in kahahi short pants and light blue
> shrrt
> > )
> > 3. Inder salim ( a young boy aged 14, in khakhi short pants and light
> > blue shrt )
> > 4. Partha Dasgupta ( a teacher, in a simple pant and shirt )
> >
> > ( scene on the stage: Aditya  has grabbed the collar of  Inder, while
> > Pawan has tightly grabbed the belt of Inder's short pants . Inder has
> > grabbed the collor of  both Aditya  and Pawan ). All the three  are in
> > action.
> >
> > Some sticks, mask of Gandhi is lying on the floor,  besides some ink,
> > paper,caps and beards and other costume as well. Text on the black
> > board: What is socialism, Secularism and Democracy ? some blurred math
> > sums underneath)
> >
> > Enter : Partha, ( the teacher):  Hey, you brats, what are you doing,
> > leave his collar, enough of it. Inder, you are elder than both of
> > these two idiots, I was not expecting you to behave like this. Enough,
> > enough.  Now, tell me what happened.
> >
> > Aditya:  Inder was spitting at me.
> >
> > Pawan : yes, and he told Aditya, that Muslims are better than Hindus.
> >
> > ( as expected, Inder did not tell Partha Sir, that both, Pawan and
> > Aditya were trying to open his khaki short pants to see whether inder
> > is circumcised or not)
> >
> > Inder Salim: Sir, both of them are not doing rehearsals seriously, I
> > just wanted them…
> >
> > Partha:  Ok, OK, it was my mistake to leave you guys alone in this
> > room. You were supposed to do the rehearsals for the show on friday.
> >
> > Inder Salim: But sir, this Gandhi mask is broken,
> >
> > Aditya, : I have one at my home. Shall I bring it tomorrow
> >
> > Partha : no, no, you have applied lot of saffron on his forehead, I
> > have seen that. The time is short we have to manage without  Gandhi
> > mask, so just tell me who was performing Gandhi ?
> >
> > Pawan: Me sir,
> >
> > Partha: so, what you do, just paste, a paper on you face, with text:
> > Allah Iswar teray naam.  That will make you look Gandhi as well.
> >
> > Inder Salim: That is fine, sir
> >
> > Aditya : but sir, he was also saying Rama , Rama Rama  all the time,
> > why not write that instead of Allah Ishwar
> >
> > Partha :  Shut up, you  ( bewakaoof ) idiot. Inder,  you just remember
> > your lines  of Jinnah perfectly, and ensure that there are no fights.
> > If you repeat it again, I will expel all the three of you from this
> > play. Remember,  Aditya, you are playing Nathu Ram Godse, right,
> > oh, the time is too short and there are no student around to play
> > other roles, so you have to rotate and play other roles too, quick,
> > start, i am coming back
> >
> > Exit :  Partha, The three young student are looking at each other.
> > Inder Salim is trying to fix the broken Gandhi mask, Pawan and Aditya
> > are helping him.
> >
> > First scene ends.
> > To be continued….
> > (  Aditya and pawan are invited to write the second scene )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Shuddha,
> > >
> > > Sorry for the confusion. I used the word creep as in "project creep",
> > > etc. I was not calling anyone a "creep". I was talking about the
> > > advance of fascism, which had been slow and steady for some time and
> > > seems to be gathering momentum now, especially in light of the army
> > > officer's involvement - which may be the tip of an iceberg. Hence
> > > "thrust".
> > >
> > > I appreciate your concern for bringing back a semblance of normalcy
> > > here, but I have a couple of things to say. I agree that other
> > > political formations in India also have authoritarian tendencies,
> > > possibly also fascist tendencies. But their followers are not or do
> > > not seem to be intent on - and succeeding in - taking over this space.
> > > Secondly, I do think that the one we have on our hands here is the
> > > most openly and determinedly fascist of them all. Thirdly, there is a
> > > difference between their ideology and the rest's, and at this time at
> > > least, the specific nature of their ideology makes them far more
> > > dangerous than the rest.
> > >
> > > I really do not see what purpose is served by calling fascism by
> > > another name. It is, and will be, a rose. It is necessary to use
> > > labels at times like this. If you do not, you will not know what
> > > exactly it is that you are dealing with. These demarcations express
> > > certain qualities that are unique to or predominant in a certain
> > > constellation of theory/ies and practice/s, and thus set them apart
> > > from other constellations. It is a matter of difference. A certain
> > > color is called pink and another brick in the English language,
> > > although they are not far from each other on the same small segment of
> > > the electromagnetic spectrum. I am sure other languages have a
> > > different set of names for a different set of colors, i.e., different
> > > points, or different more or less narrowly demarcated bands of the
> > > spectrum.
> > >
> > > I also appreciate your concern for open and free exchange of ideas.
> > > But I am unable to resolve the contradiction between absolute freedom
> > > and the freedom for some to curb the freedom of others. However, this
> > > contradiction was resolved long ago by accepting - and inscribing in
> > > the constitutions of various countries professing democracy - the
> > > principle that there can be no absolute freedom, and it is necessary
> > > to curb some freedoms of some people in order not to put others'
> > > freedoms in jeopardy. Which freedoms are curbed for protecting which
> > > other freedoms, is a decision made through power relations - whether
> > > you believes power resides in class or some other social group, or is
> > > dispersed.
> > >
> > > If we are to ensure absolute freedom in this space, we will need to
> > > conceive it as one that lies outside power relations, which it can
> > > never do. Though "virtual", It is very much part of the real world,
> > > simply because each member is part of the real world, with a distinct
> > > subjectivity, and the real, physical infrastructure of this "virtual"
> > > space is also part of the real world (CSDS). As far as I know, spaces
> > > of discourse free of power relations have been conceived only as an
> > > ideal types, not as a real possibility. If refraining from using the
> > > word "fascist" helps us experiment with it in real life, I will be
> > > happy to do so. In fact, I am going to stop using the word with this
> > > message, and watch how things go.
> > >
> > > However, I urge you to remember something Inder has pointed out - when
> > > things get a little too messy, these people put on a pleasant, smiling
> > > mask and seek to divert others' attention to things that resonate with
> > > those others - say, the environment, or the Iraq war. The only thing
> > > that changes is their tactic from blunt to subtle (hence more
> > > insidious), namely dividing their opponents by seeming to play by the
> > > "rules".
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Tapas
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2008/11/14 Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>:
> > >> Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
> > >>
> > >> I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your
> > language.
> > >> Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist creep'.
> The
> > >> point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on now. Please
> > do
> > >> not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people fascists.
> No
> > >> political formation in India today is free of authoritarian and
> fascist
> > >> tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to confront
> > >> fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic culture that
> > >> privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to
> combat
> > >> fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we become
> > >> exactly like them.
> > >>
> > >> Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own
> > commitment to
> > >> this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all
> points
> > of
> > >> view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang up
> on
> > >> anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others before.
> > >>
> > >> regards
> > >>
> > >> Shuddha
> > >>
> > >> On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in my
> > >>
> > >> opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently) part
> of
> > the
> > >>
> > >> fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with
> > every
> > >>
> > >> passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>
> > >> Tapas,
> > >>
> > >> Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member
> > reacted.
> > >>
> > >> Pawan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Monica,
> > >>
> > >> It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of
> Pawan
> > >>
> > >> and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
> > >>
> > >> because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have
> said
> > >>
> > >> recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this
> > >>
> > >> whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in
> the
> > >>
> > >> cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same
> > >>
> > >> "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
> > >>
> > >> enterprise.
> > >>
> > >> After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now
> in
> > >>
> > >> hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
> > >>
> > >> these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
> > >>
> > >> interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt
> such
> > >>
> > >> debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my
> understanding)
> > >>
> > >> had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
> > >>
> > >> business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the
> only
> > >>
> > >> possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive
> measures
> > >>
> > >> like expulsion were not acceptable.
> > >>
> > >> I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt
> democracy
> > >>
> > >> and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
> > >>
> > >> elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing
> that
> > >>
> > >> very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a
> limit
> > >>
> > >> up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that
> > >>
> > >> freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
> > >>
> > >> The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list
> today,
> > >>
> > >> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
> > >>
> > >> globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have
> > >>
> > >> noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
> > >>
> > >> noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and
> the
> > >>
> > >> rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we
> come
> > >>
> > >> back to the question of our list.
> > >>
> > >> Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
> > >>
> > >> Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
> > >>
> > >> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
> > >>
> > >> concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change
> our
> > >>
> > >> minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood
> the
> > >>
> > >> list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
> > >>
> > >> want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force
> some
> > >>
> > >> of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list.
> Why
> > >>
> > >> do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
> > >>
> > >> some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
> > >>
> > >> liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along
> > >>
> > >> with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
> > >>
> > >> The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that
> > >>
> > >> these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist
> creep
> > >>
> > >> we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
> > >>
> > >> day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
> > >>
> > >> recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms
> > >>
> > >> during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that
> some
> > >>
> > >> army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
> > >>
> > >> will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
> > >>
> > >> quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of
> > >>
> > >> Sociology.
> > >>
> > >> "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ...
> > >>
> > >> The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings
> and
> > >>
> > >> actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion;
> > >>
> > >> virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
> > >>
> > >> political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
> > >>
> > >> open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against
> these
> > >>
> > >> groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
> > >>
> > >> leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
> > >>
> > >> depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
> > >>
> > >> leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
> > >>
> > >> masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters
> > >>
> > >> of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
> > >>
> > >> though not exclusive, mass support."
> > >>
> > >> The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone?
> My
> > >>
> > >> answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
> > >>
> > >> Tapas
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Monica Narula wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Dear All
> > >>
> > >> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
> > >>
> > >> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
> > >>
> > >> monitor!
> > >>
> > >> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
> > >>
> > >> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
> > >>
> > >> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
> > >>
> > >> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
> > >>
> > >> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
> > >>
> > >> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
> > >>
> > >> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
> > >>
> > >> am a little ambivalent about.
> > >>
> > >> I request list members to be aware that making charges without
> > >>
> > >> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
> > >>
> > >> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
> > >>
> > >> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
> > >>
> > >> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some
> > >>
> > >> votaries.
> > >>
> > >> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
> > >>
> > >> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
> > >>
> > >> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
> > >>
> > >> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
> > >>
> > >> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
> > >>
> > >> from this process.
> > >>
> > >> best
> > >>
> > >> Monica
> > >>
> > >> List Admin
> > >>
> > >> Monica Narula
> > >>
> > >> Sarai-CSDS
> > >>
> > >> 29 Rajpur Road
> > >>
> > >> Delhi 110 054
> > >>
> > >> www.sarai.net
> > >>
> > >> _________________________________________
> > >>
> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >>
> > >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > >>
> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > >>
> > >> subscribe in the subject header.
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > >>
> > >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >>
> > >> _________________________________________
> > >>
> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >>
> > >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > >>
> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > >>
> > >> subscribe in the subject header.
> > >>
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> > >>
> > >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >>
> > >> _________________________________________
> > >>
> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >>
> > >> Critiques & Collaborations
> > >>
> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe
> > >> in the subject header.
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > >>
> > >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > >>
> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> > >>
> > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> > >>
> > >> Raqs Media Collective
> > >>
> > >> shuddha at sarai.net
> > >>
> > >> www.sarai.net
> > >>
> > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > subscribe in the subject header.
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > _________________________________________
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