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inder salim indersalim at gmail.com
Sun Nov 16 11:37:24 IST 2008 

Dear  Pawan, dear Aditya

i will come back to u,

at the moment an image for u and

http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000bwpyd

there are many layers in the image, but u please worry about what this
construct speaks on the surface

then talk to me about dividing the sacred Durga image into two.

i would love to educate u on how to see the images, but u have no
will, yet i am optimistic

love
is


On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:23 AM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> As one of the readers on the list, would be extremely glad if this game of
> tit-for-tat were stopped here, and we move on to things more worthy of
> attention. Partha Dasgupta,
>
> Dear Partha, thanks for this  response,
>
> Basically the  sound ' SALIM , as attachment with sound  'INDER'  has
> rattled  both Aditya and Pawan , and their like minded friends, so,
> for me,  it is 'worthy of attention'. It is the  agenda of Hindutva to
> obfuscate any  possibility that brings these two sounds closer. The
> theatricality of the problem inevitably reflects that this sort of
> questioning too. The advantage with theatre is that we can create
> fictitious characters, like i did by reducing their age drastically. i
> beleive i have achieved the effect,
>
> yes sound , Partha,  has played the role of teacher in my skit, but as
> Lawrance Liang  wisely pointed out that identities on the net are too
> virtual , so it could be some other sound as well, nothing personal
> here, i have full respect to what u are saying, i dont deny the facts
> that what is happening in the colleges during ragging or fun etc...
>
> let us go back to theatre, see how bably the second scene was written
> by Pawan and Aditya
>
> love
> is
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Inder,
>>
>> Would suggest you look closely at what you have written, and what it says.
>>
>> In school (and in fact college as well) we'd pull pants down of our friends
>> as a joke - and do note that I refer to friends of many different religions.
>> Something I mentioned in a mail on this list is that I befriend people
>> because I like them and not because of their surname or religion.
>>
>> Just because you're circumcised (as are many of my friends) does not mean
>> we're pulling the pants down to check.
>>
>> I'm sure you're used to the great Indian habit of urinating in public. I
>> certainly have neither the inclination or time to go around checking who's
>> circumcised or not.
>>
>> And if being circumcised makes you conscious or denote meanings, then I'd
>> suggest that you break free from that.
>>
>> Rgds, Partha
>> ....................................
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:06 PM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Pawan, and dear Aditya,
>>>
>>> In this very interesting chain of mails started by a profound post by
>>> Monica, I had reflected twice already. There is a huge contrast in the
>>> way I wrote these latest two, but, as I have marked earlier as well,
>>> both of you ignore the nuance.  The latest one was a sort of trap for
>>> both of you, but, like Arjuna, all you want to see  is the eye of the
>>> bird in the tree.
>>>
>>> My latest was a sample of how you write to others, how you provoke,
>>> abuse and spit on others. The words ' come on' come one, comrade, and
>>> Bharat Ratna to  both of you by Inder Salim as Prime Minister' it was
>>> all theatre,  but you could not see the purpose  hidden between the
>>> lines.  How naïve, that you educate me about the imperative of MP
>>> before  PM.  Anyway,  I am still at in mood to play it further, so
>>> watch out:
>>>
>>> Yes, I wont take you again to that  ' performance and performativity'
>>> thing, of which I am myself a small student, but I will make a small
>>> skit, please join me.
>>>  (  Dear Partha, I need you for a small role, please ).
>>> …………………………………………………………
>>>
>>> Characters:
>>> 1. Aditya ( a young boy aged 11, in khakhi short pants and light blue
>>> shirt )
>>> 2. Pawan ( a young boy  aged 10, in kahahi short pants and light blue
>>> shrrt )
>>> 3. Inder salim ( a young boy aged 14, in khakhi short pants and light
>>> blue shrt )
>>> 4. Partha Dasgupta ( a teacher, in a simple pant and shirt )
>>>
>>>  ( scene on the stage: Aditya  has grabbed the collar of  Inder, while
>>> Pawan has tightly grabbed the belt of Inder's short pants . Inder has
>>> grabbed the collor of  both Aditya  and Pawan ). All the three  are in
>>> action.
>>>
>>> Some sticks, mask of Gandhi is lying on the floor,  besides some ink,
>>> paper,caps and beards and other costume as well. Text on the black
>>> board: What is socialism, Secularism and Democracy ? some blurred math
>>> sums underneath)
>>>
>>> Enter : Partha, ( the teacher):  Hey, you brats, what are you doing,
>>> leave his collar, enough of it. Inder, you are elder than both of
>>> these two idiots, I was not expecting you to behave like this. Enough,
>>> enough.  Now, tell me what happened.
>>>
>>> Aditya:  Inder was spitting at me.
>>>
>>> Pawan : yes, and he told Aditya, that Muslims are better than Hindus.
>>>
>>>  ( as expected, Inder did not tell Partha Sir, that both, Pawan and
>>> Aditya were trying to open his khaki short pants to see whether inder
>>> is circumcised or not)
>>>
>>> Inder Salim: Sir, both of them are not doing rehearsals seriously, I
>>> just wanted them…
>>>
>>> Partha:  Ok, OK, it was my mistake to leave you guys alone in this
>>> room. You were supposed to do the rehearsals for the show on friday.
>>>
>>> Inder Salim: But sir, this Gandhi mask is broken,
>>>
>>> Aditya, : I have one at my home. Shall I bring it tomorrow
>>>
>>> Partha : no, no, you have applied lot of saffron on his forehead, I
>>> have seen that. The time is short we have to manage without  Gandhi
>>> mask, so just tell me who was performing Gandhi ?
>>>
>>> Pawan: Me sir,
>>>
>>> Partha: so, what you do, just paste, a paper on you face, with text:
>>> Allah Iswar teray naam.  That will make you look Gandhi as well.
>>>
>>> Inder Salim: That is fine, sir
>>>
>>> Aditya : but sir, he was also saying Rama , Rama Rama  all the time,
>>> why not write that instead of Allah Ishwar
>>>
>>> Partha :  Shut up, you  ( bewakaoof ) idiot. Inder,  you just remember
>>> your lines  of Jinnah perfectly, and ensure that there are no fights.
>>> If you repeat it again, I will expel all the three of you from this
>>> play. Remember,  Aditya, you are playing Nathu Ram Godse, right,
>>>  oh, the time is too short and there are no student around to play
>>> other roles, so you have to rotate and play other roles too, quick,
>>> start, i am coming back
>>>
>>> Exit :  Partha, The three young student are looking at each other.
>>> Inder Salim is trying to fix the broken Gandhi mask, Pawan and Aditya
>>> are helping him.
>>>
>>> First scene ends.
>>> To be continued….
>>> (  Aditya and pawan are invited to write the second scene )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Shuddha,
>>> >
>>> > Sorry for the confusion. I used the word creep as in "project creep",
>>> > etc. I was not calling anyone a "creep". I was talking about the
>>> > advance of fascism, which had been slow and steady for some time and
>>> > seems to be gathering momentum now, especially in light of the army
>>> > officer's involvement - which may be the tip of an iceberg. Hence
>>> > "thrust".
>>> >
>>> > I appreciate your concern for bringing back a semblance of normalcy
>>> > here, but I have a couple of things to say. I agree that other
>>> > political formations in India also have authoritarian tendencies,
>>> > possibly also fascist tendencies. But their followers are not or do
>>> > not seem to be intent on - and succeeding in - taking over this space.
>>> > Secondly, I do think that the one we have on our hands here is the
>>> > most openly and determinedly fascist of them all. Thirdly, there is a
>>> > difference between their ideology and the rest's, and at this time at
>>> > least, the specific nature of their ideology makes them far more
>>> > dangerous than the rest.
>>> >
>>> > I really do not see what purpose is served by calling fascism by
>>> > another name. It is, and will be, a rose. It is necessary to use
>>> > labels at times like this. If you do not, you will not know what
>>> > exactly it is that you are dealing with. These demarcations express
>>> > certain qualities that are unique to or predominant in a certain
>>> > constellation of theory/ies and practice/s, and thus set them apart
>>> > from other constellations. It is a matter of difference. A certain
>>> > color is called pink and another brick in the English language,
>>> > although they are not far from each other on the same small segment of
>>> > the electromagnetic spectrum. I am sure other languages have a
>>> > different set of names for a different set of colors, i.e., different
>>> > points, or different more or less narrowly demarcated bands of the
>>> > spectrum.
>>> >
>>> > I also appreciate your concern for open and free exchange of ideas.
>>> > But I am unable to resolve the contradiction between absolute freedom
>>> > and the freedom for some to curb the freedom of others. However, this
>>> > contradiction was resolved long ago by accepting - and inscribing in
>>> > the constitutions of various countries professing democracy - the
>>> > principle that there can be no absolute freedom, and it is necessary
>>> > to curb some freedoms of some people in order not to put others'
>>> > freedoms in jeopardy. Which freedoms are curbed for protecting which
>>> > other freedoms, is a decision made through power relations - whether
>>> > you believes power resides in class or some other social group, or is
>>> > dispersed.
>>> >
>>> > If we are to ensure absolute freedom in this space, we will need to
>>> > conceive it as one that lies outside power relations, which it can
>>> > never do. Though "virtual", It is very much part of the real world,
>>> > simply because each member is part of the real world, with a distinct
>>> > subjectivity, and the real, physical infrastructure of this "virtual"
>>> > space is also part of the real world (CSDS). As far as I know, spaces
>>> > of discourse free of power relations have been conceived only as an
>>> > ideal types, not as a real possibility. If refraining from using the
>>> > word "fascist" helps us experiment with it in real life, I will be
>>> > happy to do so. In fact, I am going to stop using the word with this
>>> > message, and watch how things go.
>>> >
>>> > However, I urge you to remember something Inder has pointed out - when
>>> > things get a little too messy, these people put on a pleasant, smiling
>>> > mask and seek to divert others' attention to things that resonate with
>>> > those others - say, the environment, or the Iraq war. The only thing
>>> > that changes is their tactic from blunt to subtle (hence more
>>> > insidious), namely dividing their opponents by seeming to play by the
>>> > "rules".
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> >
>>> > Tapas
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2008/11/14 Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>:
>>> >> Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
>>> >>
>>> >> I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your
>>> >> language.
>>> >> Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist creep'.
>>> >> The
>>> >> point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on now. Please
>>> >> do
>>> >> not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people fascists. No
>>> >> political formation in India today is free of authoritarian and fascist
>>> >> tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to confront
>>> >> fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic culture that
>>> >> privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to combat
>>> >> fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we become
>>> >> exactly like them.
>>> >>
>>> >> Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own
>>> >> commitment to
>>> >> this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all points
>>> >> of
>>> >> view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang up on
>>> >> anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others before.
>>> >>
>>> >> regards
>>> >>
>>> >> Shuddha
>>> >>
>>> >> On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in my
>>> >>
>>> >> opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently) part
>>> >> of the
>>> >>
>>> >> fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with
>>> >> every
>>> >>
>>> >> passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Tapas,
>>> >>
>>> >> Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member
>>> >> reacted.
>>> >>
>>> >> Pawan
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Monica,
>>> >>
>>> >> It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of Pawan
>>> >>
>>> >> and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
>>> >>
>>> >> because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have
>>> >> said
>>> >>
>>> >> recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when this
>>> >>
>>> >> whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in
>>> >> the
>>> >>
>>> >> cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the same
>>> >>
>>> >> "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
>>> >>
>>> >> enterprise.
>>> >>
>>> >> After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now in
>>> >>
>>> >> hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
>>> >>
>>> >> these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
>>> >>
>>> >> interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt
>>> >> such
>>> >>
>>> >> debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my
>>> >> understanding)
>>> >>
>>> >> had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
>>> >>
>>> >> business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the
>>> >> only
>>> >>
>>> >> possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive
>>> >> measures
>>> >>
>>> >> like expulsion were not acceptable.
>>> >>
>>> >> I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt
>>> >> democracy
>>> >>
>>> >> and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
>>> >>
>>> >> elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing that
>>> >>
>>> >> very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a
>>> >> limit
>>> >>
>>> >> up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not, that
>>> >>
>>> >> freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
>>> >>
>>> >> The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list today,
>>> >>
>>> >> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
>>> >>
>>> >> globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you have
>>> >>
>>> >> noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
>>> >>
>>> >> noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and the
>>> >>
>>> >> rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we
>>> >> come
>>> >>
>>> >> back to the question of our list.
>>> >>
>>> >> Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
>>> >>
>>> >> Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
>>> >>
>>> >> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
>>> >>
>>> >> concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change our
>>> >>
>>> >> minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood
>>> >> the
>>> >>
>>> >> list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do they
>>> >>
>>> >> want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force some
>>> >>
>>> >> of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list.
>>> >> Why
>>> >>
>>> >> do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they see
>>> >>
>>> >> some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
>>> >>
>>> >> liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions (along
>>> >>
>>> >> with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very reason.
>>> >>
>>> >> The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is that
>>> >>
>>> >> these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist
>>> >> creep
>>> >>
>>> >> we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
>>> >>
>>> >> day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
>>> >>
>>> >> recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and pogroms
>>> >>
>>> >> during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that
>>> >> some
>>> >>
>>> >> army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
>>> >>
>>> >> will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
>>> >>
>>> >> quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary of
>>> >>
>>> >> Sociology.
>>> >>
>>> >> "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology ...
>>> >>
>>> >> The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings and
>>> >>
>>> >> actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial expansion;
>>> >>
>>> >> virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
>>> >>
>>> >> political ideologies and independent working-class organizations; the
>>> >>
>>> >> open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against
>>> >> these
>>> >>
>>> >> groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
>>> >>
>>> >> leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life and
>>> >>
>>> >> depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
>>> >>
>>> >> leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the presumed
>>> >>
>>> >> masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and supporters
>>> >>
>>> >> of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the main,
>>> >>
>>> >> though not exclusive, mass support."
>>> >>
>>> >> The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone? My
>>> >>
>>> >> answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Tapas
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Monica Narula wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Dear All
>>> >>
>>> >> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
>>> >>
>>> >> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
>>> >>
>>> >> monitor!
>>> >>
>>> >> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
>>> >>
>>> >> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
>>> >>
>>> >> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
>>> >>
>>> >> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to an
>>> >>
>>> >> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
>>> >>
>>> >> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
>>> >>
>>> >> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
>>> >>
>>> >> am a little ambivalent about.
>>> >>
>>> >> I request list members to be aware that making charges without
>>> >>
>>> >> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
>>> >>
>>> >> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
>>> >>
>>> >> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
>>> >>
>>> >> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find some
>>> >>
>>> >> votaries.
>>> >>
>>> >> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
>>> >>
>>> >> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
>>> >>
>>> >> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
>>> >>
>>> >> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
>>> >>
>>> >> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
>>> >>
>>> >> from this process.
>>> >>
>>> >> best
>>> >>
>>> >> Monica
>>> >>
>>> >> List Admin
>>> >>
>>> >> Monica Narula
>>> >>
>>> >> Sarai-CSDS
>>> >>
>>> >> 29 Rajpur Road
>>> >>
>>> >> Delhi 110 054
>>> >>
>>> >> www.sarai.net
>>> >>
>>> >> _________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> >>
>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> >>
>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> >>
>>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
>>> >>
>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> >>
>>> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>> >>
>>> >> _________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> >>
>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> >>
>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> >>
>>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
>>> >>
>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> >>
>>> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>> >>
>>> >> _________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> >>
>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
>>> >>
>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> >> subscribe
>>> >> in the subject header.
>>> >>
>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>>> >>
>>> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>>> >>
>>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>>> >>
>>> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>>> >>
>>> >> Raqs Media Collective
>>> >>
>>> >> shuddha at sarai.net
>>> >>
>>> >> www.sarai.net
>>> >>
>>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> > _________________________________________
>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>> > Critiques & Collaborations
>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>> > subscribe in the subject header.
>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>>> _________________________________________
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>>> Critiques & Collaborations
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Partha Dasgupta
>> +919811047132
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>



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