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Fatima फ़ातिमा fatimaschool45 at gmail.com
Sun Nov 16 14:54:28 IST 2008 

Inder, in that photo, the hand holding the matchstick looks like a Muslim
hand. We must denounce it.





On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 11:37 AM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear  Pawan, dear Aditya
>
> i will come back to u,
>
> at the moment an image for u and
>
> http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000bwpyd
>
> there are many layers in the image, but u please worry about what this
> construct speaks on the surface
>
> then talk to me about dividing the sacred Durga image into two.
>
> i would love to educate u on how to see the images, but u have no
> will, yet i am optimistic
>
> love
> is
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:23 AM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As one of the readers on the list, would be extremely glad if this game
> of
> > tit-for-tat were stopped here, and we move on to things more worthy of
> > attention. Partha Dasgupta,
> >
> > Dear Partha, thanks for this  response,
> >
> > Basically the  sound ' SALIM , as attachment with sound  'INDER'  has
> > rattled  both Aditya and Pawan , and their like minded friends, so,
> > for me,  it is 'worthy of attention'. It is the  agenda of Hindutva to
> > obfuscate any  possibility that brings these two sounds closer. The
> > theatricality of the problem inevitably reflects that this sort of
> > questioning too. The advantage with theatre is that we can create
> > fictitious characters, like i did by reducing their age drastically. i
> > beleive i have achieved the effect,
> >
> > yes sound , Partha,  has played the role of teacher in my skit, but as
> > Lawrance Liang  wisely pointed out that identities on the net are too
> > virtual , so it could be some other sound as well, nothing personal
> > here, i have full respect to what u are saying, i dont deny the facts
> > that what is happening in the colleges during ragging or fun etc...
> >
> > let us go back to theatre, see how bably the second scene was written
> > by Pawan and Aditya
> >
> > love
> > is
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Dear Inder,
> >>
> >> Would suggest you look closely at what you have written, and what it
> says.
> >>
> >> In school (and in fact college as well) we'd pull pants down of our
> friends
> >> as a joke - and do note that I refer to friends of many different
> religions.
> >> Something I mentioned in a mail on this list is that I befriend people
> >> because I like them and not because of their surname or religion.
> >>
> >> Just because you're circumcised (as are many of my friends) does not
> mean
> >> we're pulling the pants down to check.
> >>
> >> I'm sure you're used to the great Indian habit of urinating in public. I
> >> certainly have neither the inclination or time to go around checking
> who's
> >> circumcised or not.
> >>
> >> And if being circumcised makes you conscious or denote meanings, then
> I'd
> >> suggest that you break free from that.
> >>
> >> Rgds, Partha
> >> ....................................
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:06 PM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Pawan, and dear Aditya,
> >>>
> >>> In this very interesting chain of mails started by a profound post by
> >>> Monica, I had reflected twice already. There is a huge contrast in the
> >>> way I wrote these latest two, but, as I have marked earlier as well,
> >>> both of you ignore the nuance.  The latest one was a sort of trap for
> >>> both of you, but, like Arjuna, all you want to see  is the eye of the
> >>> bird in the tree.
> >>>
> >>> My latest was a sample of how you write to others, how you provoke,
> >>> abuse and spit on others. The words ' come on' come one, comrade, and
> >>> Bharat Ratna to  both of you by Inder Salim as Prime Minister' it was
> >>> all theatre,  but you could not see the purpose  hidden between the
> >>> lines.  How naïve, that you educate me about the imperative of MP
> >>> before  PM.  Anyway,  I am still at in mood to play it further, so
> >>> watch out:
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I wont take you again to that  ' performance and performativity'
> >>> thing, of which I am myself a small student, but I will make a small
> >>> skit, please join me.
> >>>  (  Dear Partha, I need you for a small role, please ).
> >>> …………………………………………………………
> >>>
> >>> Characters:
> >>> 1. Aditya ( a young boy aged 11, in khakhi short pants and light blue
> >>> shirt )
> >>> 2. Pawan ( a young boy  aged 10, in kahahi short pants and light blue
> >>> shrrt )
> >>> 3. Inder salim ( a young boy aged 14, in khakhi short pants and light
> >>> blue shrt )
> >>> 4. Partha Dasgupta ( a teacher, in a simple pant and shirt )
> >>>
> >>>  ( scene on the stage: Aditya  has grabbed the collar of  Inder, while
> >>> Pawan has tightly grabbed the belt of Inder's short pants . Inder has
> >>> grabbed the collor of  both Aditya  and Pawan ). All the three  are in
> >>> action.
> >>>
> >>> Some sticks, mask of Gandhi is lying on the floor,  besides some ink,
> >>> paper,caps and beards and other costume as well. Text on the black
> >>> board: What is socialism, Secularism and Democracy ? some blurred math
> >>> sums underneath)
> >>>
> >>> Enter : Partha, ( the teacher):  Hey, you brats, what are you doing,
> >>> leave his collar, enough of it. Inder, you are elder than both of
> >>> these two idiots, I was not expecting you to behave like this. Enough,
> >>> enough.  Now, tell me what happened.
> >>>
> >>> Aditya:  Inder was spitting at me.
> >>>
> >>> Pawan : yes, and he told Aditya, that Muslims are better than Hindus.
> >>>
> >>>  ( as expected, Inder did not tell Partha Sir, that both, Pawan and
> >>> Aditya were trying to open his khaki short pants to see whether inder
> >>> is circumcised or not)
> >>>
> >>> Inder Salim: Sir, both of them are not doing rehearsals seriously, I
> >>> just wanted them…
> >>>
> >>> Partha:  Ok, OK, it was my mistake to leave you guys alone in this
> >>> room. You were supposed to do the rehearsals for the show on friday.
> >>>
> >>> Inder Salim: But sir, this Gandhi mask is broken,
> >>>
> >>> Aditya, : I have one at my home. Shall I bring it tomorrow
> >>>
> >>> Partha : no, no, you have applied lot of saffron on his forehead, I
> >>> have seen that. The time is short we have to manage without  Gandhi
> >>> mask, so just tell me who was performing Gandhi ?
> >>>
> >>> Pawan: Me sir,
> >>>
> >>> Partha: so, what you do, just paste, a paper on you face, with text:
> >>> Allah Iswar teray naam.  That will make you look Gandhi as well.
> >>>
> >>> Inder Salim: That is fine, sir
> >>>
> >>> Aditya : but sir, he was also saying Rama , Rama Rama  all the time,
> >>> why not write that instead of Allah Ishwar
> >>>
> >>> Partha :  Shut up, you  ( bewakaoof ) idiot. Inder,  you just remember
> >>> your lines  of Jinnah perfectly, and ensure that there are no fights.
> >>> If you repeat it again, I will expel all the three of you from this
> >>> play. Remember,  Aditya, you are playing Nathu Ram Godse, right,
> >>>  oh, the time is too short and there are no student around to play
> >>> other roles, so you have to rotate and play other roles too, quick,
> >>> start, i am coming back
> >>>
> >>> Exit :  Partha, The three young student are looking at each other.
> >>> Inder Salim is trying to fix the broken Gandhi mask, Pawan and Aditya
> >>> are helping him.
> >>>
> >>> First scene ends.
> >>> To be continued….
> >>> (  Aditya and pawan are invited to write the second scene )
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> > Shuddha,
> >>> >
> >>> > Sorry for the confusion. I used the word creep as in "project creep",
> >>> > etc. I was not calling anyone a "creep". I was talking about the
> >>> > advance of fascism, which had been slow and steady for some time and
> >>> > seems to be gathering momentum now, especially in light of the army
> >>> > officer's involvement - which may be the tip of an iceberg. Hence
> >>> > "thrust".
> >>> >
> >>> > I appreciate your concern for bringing back a semblance of normalcy
> >>> > here, but I have a couple of things to say. I agree that other
> >>> > political formations in India also have authoritarian tendencies,
> >>> > possibly also fascist tendencies. But their followers are not or do
> >>> > not seem to be intent on - and succeeding in - taking over this
> space.
> >>> > Secondly, I do think that the one we have on our hands here is the
> >>> > most openly and determinedly fascist of them all. Thirdly, there is a
> >>> > difference between their ideology and the rest's, and at this time at
> >>> > least, the specific nature of their ideology makes them far more
> >>> > dangerous than the rest.
> >>> >
> >>> > I really do not see what purpose is served by calling fascism by
> >>> > another name. It is, and will be, a rose. It is necessary to use
> >>> > labels at times like this. If you do not, you will not know what
> >>> > exactly it is that you are dealing with. These demarcations express
> >>> > certain qualities that are unique to or predominant in a certain
> >>> > constellation of theory/ies and practice/s, and thus set them apart
> >>> > from other constellations. It is a matter of difference. A certain
> >>> > color is called pink and another brick in the English language,
> >>> > although they are not far from each other on the same small segment
> of
> >>> > the electromagnetic spectrum. I am sure other languages have a
> >>> > different set of names for a different set of colors, i.e., different
> >>> > points, or different more or less narrowly demarcated bands of the
> >>> > spectrum.
> >>> >
> >>> > I also appreciate your concern for open and free exchange of ideas.
> >>> > But I am unable to resolve the contradiction between absolute freedom
> >>> > and the freedom for some to curb the freedom of others. However, this
> >>> > contradiction was resolved long ago by accepting - and inscribing in
> >>> > the constitutions of various countries professing democracy - the
> >>> > principle that there can be no absolute freedom, and it is necessary
> >>> > to curb some freedoms of some people in order not to put others'
> >>> > freedoms in jeopardy. Which freedoms are curbed for protecting which
> >>> > other freedoms, is a decision made through power relations - whether
> >>> > you believes power resides in class or some other social group, or is
> >>> > dispersed.
> >>> >
> >>> > If we are to ensure absolute freedom in this space, we will need to
> >>> > conceive it as one that lies outside power relations, which it can
> >>> > never do. Though "virtual", It is very much part of the real world,
> >>> > simply because each member is part of the real world, with a distinct
> >>> > subjectivity, and the real, physical infrastructure of this "virtual"
> >>> > space is also part of the real world (CSDS). As far as I know, spaces
> >>> > of discourse free of power relations have been conceived only as an
> >>> > ideal types, not as a real possibility. If refraining from using the
> >>> > word "fascist" helps us experiment with it in real life, I will be
> >>> > happy to do so. In fact, I am going to stop using the word with this
> >>> > message, and watch how things go.
> >>> >
> >>> > However, I urge you to remember something Inder has pointed out -
> when
> >>> > things get a little too messy, these people put on a pleasant,
> smiling
> >>> > mask and seek to divert others' attention to things that resonate
> with
> >>> > those others - say, the environment, or the Iraq war. The only thing
> >>> > that changes is their tactic from blunt to subtle (hence more
> >>> > insidious), namely dividing their opponents by seeming to play by the
> >>> > "rules".
> >>> >
> >>> > Best,
> >>> >
> >>> > Tapas
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 2008/11/14 Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>:
> >>> >> Dear Tapas, Dear Inder, dear all,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I would strongly urge you and everyone to temper and moderate your
> >>> >> language.
> >>> >> Nothing is served by you or anyone calling anyone a 'fascist creep'.
> >>> >> The
> >>> >> point about abuse has been effectively made. Let's move on now.
> Please
> >>> >> do
> >>> >> not continue to exacerbate the situation by calling people fascists.
> No
> >>> >> political formation in India today is free of authoritarian and
> fascist
> >>> >> tendencies. And yes, I strongly believe that the only way to
> confront
> >>> >> fascism, wherever it exists, is with an open democratic culture that
> >>> >> privileges dialogue and reason. We cannot use fascist methods to
> combat
> >>> >> fascism, because then we become their mirrors and gradually we
> become
> >>> >> exactly like them.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Please safeguard and protect the democratic nature of your own
> >>> >> commitment to
> >>> >> this space as a space of openness, dialogue and reason where all
> points
> >>> >> of
> >>> >> view are welcome and can be debated in an open way. Lets not gang up
> on
> >>> >> anyone now, not even on those who may have ganged up on others
> before.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> regards
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Shuddha
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 14-Nov-08, at 10:45 AM, Pawan Durani wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On 11/13/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:<<<<<<<<<<<< in
> my
> >>> >>
> >>> >> opinion - is that these members are (as we have stated recently)
> part
> >>> >> of the
> >>> >>
> >>> >> fascist creep we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with
> >>> >> every
> >>> >>
> >>> >> passing day.  >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Tapas,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Thank you for your wonderful statement, to which non of the member
> >>> >> reacted.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Pawan
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Monica,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> It is, of course, your prerogative to decide whether the likes of
> Pawan
> >>> >>
> >>> >> and Aditya should be expelled or not. But I would like to repeat -
> >>> >>
> >>> >> because I would request you to consider - a couple of things I have
> >>> >> said
> >>> >>
> >>> >> recently and had said two or three years ago (maybe earlier) when
> this
> >>> >>
> >>> >> whole thing started with Vedavati (as far as I remember) throwing in
> >>> >> the
> >>> >>
> >>> >> cow slaughter issue out of nowhere, refused to stop repeating the
> same
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "arguments" ad nauseum, and was soon joined by a few others in that
> >>> >>
> >>> >> enterprise.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> After this had gone on for what then seemed like an eternity and now
> in
> >>> >>
> >>> >> hindsight seems like a few minutes, I had said that the expulsion of
> >>> >>
> >>> >> these people should be considered, because it was clear they had no
> >>> >>
> >>> >> interest in rational critical debate and were determined to disrupt
> >>> >> such
> >>> >>
> >>> >> debates with their discourse of hate. As this list (in my
> >>> >> understanding)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> had been set up precisely as a space for such debates, they had no
> >>> >>
> >>> >> business to be here. I was told that reasoned argumentation was the
> >>> >> only
> >>> >>
> >>> >> possible response to whatever they had been doing, and coercive
> >>> >> measures
> >>> >>
> >>> >> like expulsion were not acceptable.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I had pointed out that the Nazis had used democracy to disrupt
> >>> >> democracy
> >>> >>
> >>> >> and communist parties had been taking part in elections and getting
> >>> >>
> >>> >> elected in multiparty systems with the long-term goal of replacing
> that
> >>> >>
> >>> >> very system with dictatorship. In other words, there ought to be a
> >>> >> limit
> >>> >>
> >>> >> up to which such forces can be allowed to operate freely. If not,
> that
> >>> >>
> >>> >> freedom - for others - will become a casualty.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The situation escalated over the years. It is worse on this list
> today,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> but that should be the least of our concerns (or not). It is worse
> >>> >>
> >>> >> globally and internally (in India) in terms of the economy as you
> have
> >>> >>
> >>> >> noted, and is likely to deteriorate politically, again as you have
> >>> >>
> >>> >> noted. I agree with you - if we go back to the Great Depression and
> the
> >>> >>
> >>> >> rise of fascists and Nazis, we will see why. And it's there that we
> >>> >> come
> >>> >>
> >>> >> back to the question of our list.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Let us pause for a moment here to think why Vedavati, Pawan, Aditya,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Chanchal, etc., have joined this list in the first place. Does their
> >>> >>
> >>> >> discourse show any interest in history or reason or theories or
> >>> >>
> >>> >> concepts? No. Do they expect those of us who engage them, to change
> our
> >>> >>
> >>> >> minds? No. Then why are they here, and why do they continue to flood
> >>> >> the
> >>> >>
> >>> >> list with their inanities and their hate and their spit? What do
> they
> >>> >>
> >>> >> want to achieve? My answer is, to coerce us into submission, force
> some
> >>> >>
> >>> >> of us to unsubscribe in disgust, and effectively take over the list.
> >>> >> Why
> >>> >>
> >>> >> do they spend so much time and energy on this? My answer is, they
> see
> >>> >>
> >>> >> some value in it - they know that this list has earned respect as a
> >>> >>
> >>> >> liberal/progressive forum hosting some high-quality discussions
> (along
> >>> >>
> >>> >> with their venom) and they want to snuff it out for that very
> reason.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The question remains, why? The simple answer - in my opinion - is
> that
> >>> >>
> >>> >> these members are (as we have stated recently) part of the fascist
> >>> >> creep
> >>> >>
> >>> >> we have seen in India, which is becoming a thrust with every passing
> >>> >>
> >>> >> day. If we did not see that in Babri, not even in Gujarat, or in the
> >>> >>
> >>> >> recent anti-Christian riots, not to speak of smaller riots and
> pogroms
> >>> >>
> >>> >> during these years, we should perhaps see it in the revelation that
> >>> >> some
> >>> >>
> >>> >> army officers have been involved in terrorist activities. Some of us
> >>> >>
> >>> >> will probably object to my characterization. For their benefit I am
> >>> >>
> >>> >> quoting from the definition of "fascism" in the Collins Dictionary
> of
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Sociology.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "... anti-intellectualism is a constituent element of the ideology
> ...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The following are some of the main constituents in fascist writings
> and
> >>> >>
> >>> >> actions: extreme racist nationalism linked with territorial
> expansion;
> >>> >>
> >>> >> virulent anti-communism combined with intolerance of most other
> >>> >>
> >>> >> political ideologies and independent working-class organizations;
> the
> >>> >>
> >>> >> open use and glorification of physical violence and terror against
> >>> >> these
> >>> >>
> >>> >> groups; a reliance on a mass party organized around a powerful
> >>> >>
> >>> >> leadership, and once in power engaged in most areas of civil life
> and
> >>> >>
> >>> >> depending on continual mass mobilization to sustain support for the
> >>> >>
> >>> >> leadership; the glorification of militarism, the cult of the
> presumed
> >>> >>
> >>> >> masculine virtues, with women defined mainly as mothers and
> supporters
> >>> >>
> >>> >> of men; predominant support from the middle classes who are the
> main,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> though not exclusive, mass support."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The question for us is, can we fight these forces with reason alone?
> My
> >>> >>
> >>> >> answer is an emphatic no, on this list or outside it.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Tapas
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Monica Narula wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Dear All
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I think its rather cute the way dear everyone is asking for an
> >>> >>
> >>> >> intervention from the admin - now increasingly feeling like a class
> >>> >>
> >>> >> monitor!
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The coming years are going to be a difficult ones. There is going to
> >>> >>
> >>> >> be a massive drop in employment opportunities, liquidity will fall,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> infrastructure will remain half-built etc. There will also be an
> >>> >>
> >>> >> increasing shrillness of speech. This, I am guessing, will lead to
> an
> >>> >>
> >>> >> aggressive acceleration in both inclusive and exclusive
> >>> >>
> >>> >> authoritarianism. So the future trajectory of the language game and
> >>> >>
> >>> >> the rhetorical quotient on the reader-list will be something that I
> >>> >>
> >>> >> am a little ambivalent about.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I request list members to be aware that making charges without
> >>> >>
> >>> >> substantial ground is more to do with incitement than to do with
> >>> >>
> >>> >> discussion. It is odd that when the world is trying to come to term
> >>> >>
> >>> >> with global seismic shocks that seem to come at all of us from all
> >>> >>
> >>> >> directions, archaic accusations about the "foreign" seem to find
> some
> >>> >>
> >>> >> votaries.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Let us think a little harder. The world is not legible. In an
> >>> >>
> >>> >> increasingly blurring reality, understanding the grounds of
> >>> >>
> >>> >> accusations and rhetorical posturing will be necessary. Let us think
> >>> >>
> >>> >> how to deal with language, and what it says, in what can feel like a
> >>> >>
> >>> >> crumbling world, rather than merely becoming the dust that arises
> >>> >>
> >>> >> from this process.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> best
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Monica
> >>> >>
> >>> >> List Admin
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Monica Narula
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Sarai-CSDS
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 29 Rajpur Road
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Delhi 110 054
> >>> >>
> >>> >> www.sarai.net
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _________________________________________
> >>> >>
> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >>
> >>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _________________________________________
> >>> >>
> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >>
> >>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> >>
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> >>> >>
> >>> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _________________________________________
> >>> >>
> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> >> subscribe
> >>> >> in the subject header.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Raqs Media Collective
> >>> >>
> >>> >> shuddha at sarai.net
> >>> >>
> >>> >> www.sarai.net
> >>> >>
> >>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> > _________________________________________
> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >>> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >>> _________________________________________
> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >>> subscribe in the subject header.
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Partha Dasgupta
> >> +919811047132
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> _________________________________________
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