[Reader-list] Day 8 of Naz Hearings 15.10.08

[Aarti Sethi]

which apparently cause cancer it seems....

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Lawrence Liang
<lawrence at altlawforum.org>wrote:

> wow, golden showers in the delhi high court , what  a joy :)
>
>
> Day eight of the Naz hearings  15.10.08
>
> The ASG submitted some additional material to the Court based on which he
> made the following submissions :
> The ASG continued his submissions by  making the point that HIV
> transmission
> was through sexual contact and as per the study of sexual behavior in the
> US
> , over 89% of the transmission was due to homosexual behaviour.
> J. Shah  asked a question about the validity of the article relied upon by
> the ASG and made the point that the author of the piece was a  Minster in
> the Catholic Church. Justice Muralidhar noted that on page six of the
> article submitted by the ASG the entire discussion was based on the Bible.
> J. Shah went on to read from the article that 'AIDS was a judgment of God'
> and noted the the article seemed to  be complete propaganda.
>
> The ASG retorted by saying how come anything on the other side is accepted
> and anything on this side is seen as propaganda.
> J. Shah noted that the ASG should refer to the NACO affidavit on the point.
> The ASG went on to read from the article titled, 'The health risks of gay
> sex ' by Dr John Diggs to say,   that there were five distinctions between
> gay and heterosexual relationships. Those differences include:
> A.Levels of promiscuity
> B.Physicalhealth
> C.Mentalhealth
> D.Lifespan
> E. Definition of "monogamy"
> THE ASG went on to read from the article to make the points that  there was
> a high level of promiscuity among gay men with 75% of male homosexuals
> having more than 100 partners. This according to the ASG would mean that
> HIV
> would spread like wildfire. The medical consequence would be the spread of
> HIV, syphilis etc.  He also noted that lesbians are 3-4 times more likely
> to
> have risky sex.  There was a high incidence of psychological abuse among
> gay
> and lesbian people. There was also a high rate of intravenous drug use
> among
> lesbian, gay and bisexual people. Long term sexual fidelity is rare in gay
> relationships.
> J. Shah responded by asking who was Dr. John Diggs , the author of the
> article? He made the point that he was a practicing internist and not a
> doctor. He noted that the Court was interested in scientific opinions not
> the opinions of religious bodies. He noted that a view of a religious body
> which viewed them as sinners could not be taken notice of by the Court.
> The ASG responded by saying that Dr. John Diggs has produced statistics on
> the serious health consequences of engaging in homosexual sodomy.
> Homosexual sodomy is an efficient transmitter of STD/HIV and anal
> intercourse is a serious health hazard.
> J. Shah  by asking who were the  traditional values coalition on whose
> website,  the John Diggs article was hosted. He said 'what are his
> credentials and how do we accept it? On one hand we have NACO and on the
> other we have Dr. Diggs from America ?'
> The ASG said that the only reason he cited the study was to show that
> homosexuality caused a very serious health problem.  He went on to read
> from
> the study to say that, the sexual activity enjoyed by homosexuals results
> in
> bacterial infections, and even cancer. There are activities like golden
> showers, and insertion of objects into the rectum which cause oral and anal
> cancer.  A study of homosexual practices shows 37% enjoyed sodomitical
> activities and 23% enjoyed water sports.
> J. Shah asked by everything on the internet was to be  taken as gospel: He
> noted that they were not taking it and that they were going by the
> Governments own affidavit.
> The ASG said that AID's is causing havoc in society.
> J, Shah noted that the NACO Report had to be countered by scientific
> material  by bodies such as the WHO and not religious bodies.  He asked the
> ASG to get material on what the position of bodies such as the WHO were?
> The ASG went on to cite another study which also noted the high levels of
> promiscuity and unhealthy behaviour among the homosexual community. He
> noted
> that 29% of homosexuals had 300 partners in a lifetime and 8% had over 300
> partners.  In New York and San Francisco where gays were concentrated one
> report suggests that they had even 1000 partners.
> J. Shah interjected to say that going by the ASG's argument should we then
> put 20 lakh homosexuals behind bars?  He went on to quote from the study by
> saying that 'homosexuality is death' is really a one sided view of
> religious
> bodies.
> The ASG noted that the figures were based on research by a research
> scholar.
>
> J. Shah said that there were doctors among religious bodies as well and
> anyway what does the WHO say?
> J. Shah noted that the key issue was how far can the government intervene
> in
> the privacy of a person and whether the state's intervention was correct?
> The ASG made another submission about the spread of HIV through homosexual
> sex to which JH. Shah noted that he recently addressed a gathering of 600
> widows whose husbands had died of HIV. So it was not only gay partners who
> suffered from HIV AIDS.
> THE ASG then went on to cite another report  which had the figures
> HIV is 6 times higher in white men
> 15 times higher in white women
> Blacks account for 46% of all infection
> Blacks are 12% but account for a major part of the infection.
> J., Shah strongly objected to the study and said that this study seemed to
> target the black community as spreading HIV/AIDS.
> J. Muralidhar asked the ASG to show some statistics relevant to India.  He
> went on to ask if the ASG  could produce  any study to show  that this
> activity increases risk to such an extent that it needs to be criminalized
> ?
> "There are two arguments which you have put forward.  One is on public
> morality and the other is on public health and safety.  All literature
> including the NACO affidavit points to the contrary of what you are
> suggesting in terms of the second argument. NACO is telling us that
> continued criminalization will result in denial of the right to health of
> this group."
> The ASG replied by saying that they are entitled to all health benefits.
> J. Muralidhar responded by saying that they are not entitled but have a
> right to health and continued criminalization prevents their exercising
> this
> right. This is the argument of the other side, whether Sec 377 prevents a
> person from exercising his right?
> The ASG asked whether in the garb of this right whether one can deny the
> right to health of the rest of society?
> On being asked to produce statistics from India the ASG noted that the
> other
> side went to the US and other places but he was being asked to keep to
> India?
>  J. Muralidhar noted that for facts and statistics we must first and
> foremost, go to expert bodies in India,. But law and judgments could go to
> other jurisdictions.
> J. Shah asked the ASG to show some scientific material that retaining
> criminalization would work as a deterrent .
> The ASG noted that 'this kind of activity, by a man and a woman it spreads.
> In normal sex, man is required by law to have sex with one person. Now if
> they are having sex with 100s of persons, 200 , 500 even more, its more
> likely to transmit disease.
> Counsel for Naz Foundation intervened by citing a UN AID's policy brief on
> HIV and Sex between men ,  which noted that  the criminalization and
> stigmatization of MSM impeded HIV prevention work.
> J. Shah noted that  ' you want to disown the NACO affidavit and say that
> criminalization is a must. We are trying to say that its not only NACO but
> UNAIDs as well which is a UN body which is arguing for respecting rights of
> MSM.
> J. Muralidhar said that another argument the ASG could make would be to
> show
> that decriminalization had led to the spread of HIV/AIDs .
> J. Shah noted that in both the Dudgeon and the Modinos case the same
> arguments were advanced.  The Court did not see any merit in them.  Even
> within the UN the consensus seems to be that discrimination and
> stigmatization has not helped.
> The ASG took the judges to a compilation which showed in which countries
> homosexuality was decriminalized and in which countries it continued to be
> an offence.
> J. Shah noted that the point one could get from the compilation was that
> all
> democratic countries  are in favour of decriminalization.
> The ASG then cited from an article titled , 'Why gay marriage is not only
> wrong but socially destructive.', to make the point that after gay marriage
> was made legal in the Netherlands, HIV/ STD rates were soaring.
> J. Shah noted that marriage was a very different issue which was not being
> discussed here.
> Then the ASG read an article titled homosexuality and religion with its
> source being the wikipedia.
> At which point consul for the petitioners submitted that wikepedia was an
> unreliable source as anybody could modify the article.
> The ASG then went on to read and respond to the written arguments of the
> petitioners. He noted that with respect to Art 14 , Sec 377 did not violate
> the provision as the law applied to all persons equally. It did not single
> out certain persons. It applied equally to all classes of persons – whether
> female or male , with this kind of unnatural thing being prohibited by law.
> It does not for example state that the provision applies only to women, men
> above 50 etc. It applies to every citizen uniformly.
> J. Shah noted that the argument of the petitioners was the over inclusivity
> of the provision.
> The Court then rose with the next hearing fixed for the next day,
> 16.10.08.
>
> Mayur Suresh and Arvind Narrain
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