[Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?

Sat Oct 18 08:55:23 IST 2008

IT IS ALWAYS A USUAL INTRODUCTION TO ONE'S OWN SELF, WHATEVER THE SUBJECT

Dear Chanchal ji,

 a couple of days back, after the wonderful presentation by Hans
Belting on Arab Science and Renaissance Art, a gentleman asked a
question about palmistry, and  you know what happened, people started
leaving the hall at IGNCA.   to my surpris the gentleman said  said
that whatever hunch  you ( Mr. Belting's )  have on  Alhazen...  ( the
great scientist )

so,

with love and regards
is

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul
<kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Prabhakar,
>
> It was actually, Shuddha's usual introduction of his-own-self. How can he
> not reflect his true street character ? :-)
>
> He better stay in his comfort zone; in his dreams - the intellectual he is
> !!
>
> Love
> Aditya Raj Kaul
>
> On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and
>> insult him? Moderator may please note and take action.
>> Prabhakar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
>> To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>>
>> Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
>>
>> Chanchal, you moron,
>>
>> 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is
>> the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act.
>> 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in
>> Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any
>> religion.
>> 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite
>> actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu
>> outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims,
>> Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them.
>> There is nothing wrong with that.
>> 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them
>> communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the
>> Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the
>> Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me
>> neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested
>> in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of
>> how I see my own faith or doubts).
>>
>> WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you
>> are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing,
>> either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and
>> ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud
>> Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices
>> actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the
>> words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics
>> bring shame and dishonour to theirs.
>>
>> Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless
>> depths of your ignorance.
>>
>> Shuddha
>>
>>
>> On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote:
>>
>> > India is secular:
>> > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law
>> > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not
>> > have that.
>> > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy
>> > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged
>> > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their
>> > own motherland
>> > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be
>> > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal
>> >
>> > Not to say the last words..
>> > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or
>> > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies
>> > because we chose to remain Hindu.
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > From: Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
>> > To: "Javed" <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
>> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
>> > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
>> >
>> > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali
>> > Engineer.
>> >
>> > vedavati
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
>> > To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM
>> >
>> > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
>> >
>> > Asghar Ali Engineer
>> >
>> > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008)
>> >
>> > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and
>> > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the
>> > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even
>> > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during
>> > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal
>> > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well
>> > as linguistic.
>> >
>> > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice,
>> > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more
>> > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly,
>> > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were
>> > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite
>> > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent.
>> >
>> > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as
>> > a category and national identity was of great importance and often
>> > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the
>> > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand
>> > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very
>> > articulate and loud.
>> >
>> > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi
>> > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so
>> > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to
>> > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was
>> > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or
>> > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002.
>> >
>> > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great
>> > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad
>> > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400
>> > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until
>> > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like
>> > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc.
>> >
>> > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence
>> > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement
>> > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull
>> > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place
>> > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite
>> > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country.
>> >
>> > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos
>> > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal
>> > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if,
>> > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu
>> > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism
>> > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism.
>> >
>> > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the
>> > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the
>> > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus
>> > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging
>> > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena.
>> >
>> > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva
>> > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent
>> > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the
>> > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly.
>> > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining
>> > districts, is indeed hair raising.
>> >
>> > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman
>> > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35
>> > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for?
>> > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that
>> > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not
>> > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"?
>> >
>> > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of
>> > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted
>> > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert
>> > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to
>> > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers
>> > just look on.
>> >
>> > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was
>> > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA
>> > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We
>> > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the
>> > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has
>> > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling
>> > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India.
>> >
>> > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA
>> > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today
>> > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government.
>> > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is
>> > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime
>> > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact
>> > with America than the communal explosion back home.
>> >
>> > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the
>> > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home
>> > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given
>> > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over
>> > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such
>> > license to function freely.
>> >
>> > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all
>> > key positions and they captured important academic positions too.
>> > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on
>> > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded
>> > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as
>> > never before.
>> >
>> > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers
>> > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is
>> > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if
>> > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays
>> > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy
>> > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except
>> > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.
>> >
>> > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong
>> > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle
>> > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is
>> > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first
>> > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva
>> > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation
>> > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is
>> > 'shameful'.
>> >
>> > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done
>> > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting
>> > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying
>> > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa.
>> > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly
>> > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for
>> > its complete inability to control communal violence.
>> >
>> > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of
>> > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the
>> > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that
>> > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle
>> > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large
>> > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in
>> > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and
>> > Hitler.
>> >
>> > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It
>> > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but
>> > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders
>> > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after
>> > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks
>> > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours.
>> >
>> > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is
>> > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is
>> > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is
>> > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media
>> > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions
>> > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded
>> > terrorists'.
>> >
>> > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and
>> > play determined role things can get far more worse.
>> > _________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
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>> > _________________________________________
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>> >
>> > _________________________________________
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>>
>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>> Raqs Media Collective
>> shuddha at sarai.net
>> www.sarai.net
>> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>>
>>
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