[Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?

[Aditya Raj Kaul]

Aarti ji, Was this High-School unwanted lecture addressed to your friend
Shuddha ? If not, then you have a serious problem. Propaganda will remain a
Propaganda. will it change ?

We all obviously know who the trash people are (label:fake). And, they all
so need be gifted with a delicate brain to be honest and genuine. Till then
there are few out here who can help in. We sympathise with you and your
gang. Do not consider yourself lonely.

Love
Aditya Raj Kaul

On 10/18/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult,
> trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But
> one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. You
> are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, then
> I
> suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out on
> your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, then
> address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say
> seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than
> appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual,
> boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense.
>
> Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade.
> Shuddha
> is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it would be
> insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh
> <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
> > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and
> > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action.
> > Prabhakar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> >
> > Chanchal, you moron,
> >
> > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is
> > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act.
> > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in
> > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any
> > religion.
> > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite
> > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu
> > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims,
> > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them.
> > There is nothing wrong with that.
> > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them
> > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the
> > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the
> > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me
> > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested
> > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of
> > how I see my own faith or doubts).
> >
> > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you
> > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing,
> > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and
> > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud
> > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices
> > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the
> > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics
> > bring shame and dishonour to theirs.
> >
> > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless
> > depths of your ignorance.
> >
> > Shuddha
> >
> >
> > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote:
> >
> > > India is secular:
> > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law
> > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not
> > > have that.
> > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy
> > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged
> > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their
> > > own motherland
> > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be
> > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal
> > >
> > > Not to say the last words..
> > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or
> > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies
> > > because we chose to remain Hindu.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > From: Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > > To: "Javed" <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
> > >
> > > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali
> > > Engineer.
> > >
> > > vedavati
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > > To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM
> > >
> > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > >
> > > Asghar Ali Engineer
> > >
> > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008)
> > >
> > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and
> > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the
> > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even
> > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during
> > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal
> > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well
> > > as linguistic.
> > >
> > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice,
> > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more
> > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly,
> > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were
> > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite
> > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent.
> > >
> > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as
> > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often
> > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the
> > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand
> > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very
> > > articulate and loud.
> > >
> > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi
> > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so
> > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to
> > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was
> > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or
> > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002.
> > >
> > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great
> > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad
> > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400
> > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until
> > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like
> > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc.
> > >
> > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence
> > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement
> > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull
> > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place
> > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite
> > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country.
> > >
> > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos
> > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal
> > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if,
> > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu
> > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism
> > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism.
> > >
> > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the
> > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the
> > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus
> > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging
> > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena.
> > >
> > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva
> > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent
> > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the
> > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly.
> > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining
> > > districts, is indeed hair raising.
> > >
> > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman
> > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35
> > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for?
> > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that
> > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not
> > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"?
> > >
> > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of
> > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted
> > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert
> > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to
> > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers
> > > just look on.
> > >
> > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was
> > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA
> > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We
> > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the
> > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has
> > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling
> > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India.
> > >
> > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA
> > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today
> > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government.
> > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is
> > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime
> > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact
> > > with America than the communal explosion back home.
> > >
> > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the
> > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home
> > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given
> > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over
> > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such
> > > license to function freely.
> > >
> > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all
> > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too.
> > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on
> > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded
> > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as
> > > never before.
> > >
> > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers
> > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is
> > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if
> > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays
> > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy
> > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except
> > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.
> > >
> > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong
> > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle
> > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is
> > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first
> > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva
> > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation
> > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is
> > > 'shameful'.
> > >
> > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done
> > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting
> > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying
> > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa.
> > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly
> > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for
> > > its complete inability to control communal violence.
> > >
> > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of
> > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the
> > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that
> > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle
> > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large
> > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in
> > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and
> > > Hitler.
> > >
> > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It
> > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but
> > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders
> > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after
> > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks
> > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours.
> > >
> > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is
> > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is
> > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is
> > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media
> > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions
> > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded
> > > terrorists'.
> > >
> > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and
> > > play determined role things can get far more worse.
> > > _________________________________________
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> >
> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> > Raqs Media Collective
> > shuddha at sarai.net
> > www.sarai.net
> > www.raqsmediacollective.net
> >
> >
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