[Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?

Aarti Sethi aarti.sethi at gmail.com
Sat Oct 18 10:48:09 IST 2008 

you really crack me up Aditya.

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul
<kauladityaraj at gmail.com>wrote:

> Aarti ji, Was this High-School unwanted lecture addressed to your friend
> Shuddha ? If not, then you have a serious problem. Propaganda will remain a
> Propaganda. will it change ?
>
> We all obviously know who the trash people are (label:fake). And, they all
> so need be gifted with a delicate brain to be honest and genuine. Till then
> there are few out here who can help in. We sympathise with you and your
> gang. Do not consider yourself lonely.
>
> Love
> Aditya Raj Kaul
>
> On 10/18/08, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult,
> > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But
> > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul.
> You
> > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out,
> then
> > I
> > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out
> on
> > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey,
> then
> > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say
> > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than
> > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual,
> > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense.
> >
> > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade.
> > Shuddha
> > is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it would
> be
> > insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh
> > <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron'
> and
> > > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action.
> > > Prabhakar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > >
> > > Chanchal, you moron,
> > >
> > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is
> > > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act.
> > > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in
> > > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any
> > > religion.
> > > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite
> > > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu
> > > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims,
> > > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them.
> > > There is nothing wrong with that.
> > > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them
> > > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the
> > > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the
> > > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me
> > > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested
> > > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of
> > > how I see my own faith or doubts).
> > >
> > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you
> > > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing,
> > > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and
> > > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud
> > > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices
> > > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the
> > > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics
> > > bring shame and dishonour to theirs.
> > >
> > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless
> > > depths of your ignorance.
> > >
> > > Shuddha
> > >
> > >
> > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote:
> > >
> > > > India is secular:
> > > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law
> > > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not
> > > > have that.
> > > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy
> > > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged
> > > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their
> > > > own motherland
> > > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be
> > > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal
> > > >
> > > > Not to say the last words..
> > > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or
> > > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies
> > > > because we chose to remain Hindu.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > From: Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > > > To: "Javed" <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
> > > >
> > > > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali
> > > > Engineer.
> > > >
> > > > vedavati
> > > >
> > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > > > To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM
> > > >
> > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
> > > >
> > > > Asghar Ali Engineer
> > > >
> > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008)
> > > >
> > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and
> > > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the
> > > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even
> > > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during
> > > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal
> > > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well
> > > > as linguistic.
> > > >
> > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice,
> > > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more
> > > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly,
> > > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were
> > > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and
> despite
> > > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent.
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as
> > > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often
> > > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the
> > > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's
> demand
> > > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very
> > > > articulate and loud.
> > > >
> > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi
> > > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so
> > > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to
> > > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was
> > > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or
> > > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002.
> > > >
> > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great
> > > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad
> > > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400
> > > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check
> until
> > > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like
> > > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc.
> > > >
> > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence
> > > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement
> > > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull
> > > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place
> > > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite
> > > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country.
> > > >
> > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos
> > > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal
> > > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if,
> > > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu
> > > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian
> nationalism
> > > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism.
> > > >
> > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than
> the
> > > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the
> > > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus
> > > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging
> > > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena.
> > > >
> > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the
> Hindutva
> > > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent
> > > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the
> > > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly.
> > > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining
> > > > districts, is indeed hair raising.
> > > >
> > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman
> > > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and
> 35
> > > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for?
> > > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar
> that
> > > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not
> > > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"?
> > > >
> > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of
> > > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally
> targeted
> > > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert
> > > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all
> to
> > > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers
> > > > just look on.
> > > >
> > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was
> > > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA
> > > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We
> > > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the
> > > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has
> > > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling
> > > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India.
> > > >
> > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA
> > > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today
> > > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government.
> > > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is
> > > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime
> > > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact
> > > > with America than the communal explosion back home.
> > > >
> > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and
> the
> > > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home
> > > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given
> > > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over
> > > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such
> > > > license to function freely.
> > > >
> > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all
> > > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too.
> > > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on
> > > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded
> > > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as
> > > > never before.
> > > >
> > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the
> newspapers
> > > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is
> > > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if
> > > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays
> > > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy
> > > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems
> except
> > > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.
> > > >
> > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong
> > > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle
> > > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is
> > > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first
> > > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to
> Hindutva
> > > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation
> > > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is
> > > > 'shameful'.
> > > >
> > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done
> > > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting
> > > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying
> > > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of
> Orissa.
> > > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly
> > > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for
> > > > its complete inability to control communal violence.
> > > >
> > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of
> > > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the
> > > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that
> > > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle
> > > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large
> > > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in
> > > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and
> > > > Hitler.
> > > >
> > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It
> > > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but
> > > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders
> > > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot
> after
> > > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks
> > > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours.
> > > >
> > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is
> > > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is
> > > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is
> > > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media
> > > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions
> > > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded
> > > > terrorists'.
> > > >
> > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite
> and
> > > > play determined role things can get far more worse.
> > > > _________________________________________
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> > >
> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta
> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS
> > > Raqs Media Collective
> > > shuddha at sarai.net
> > > www.sarai.net
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> > >
> > >
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