[Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"

Sat Oct 18 13:12:07 IST 2008

Dear Tapas,
You seem to have drawn conclusions even without having read my post. Nowhere have I mentioned any thing to suggest even remotely what all you have alleged.

Do you mean to say that to raise concerns about the menace of pan Islamism inspired terrorism that is prevailing in Kashmir for the past two decades & is also now increasing spreading in rest of india  amounts to being anti Muslim? I feel pain & anguish over the sufferings of credulous Muslims who are falling prey to indoctrination & religious blackmail & it is certainly not to appease you. But you seem to be justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu Pandits in Kashmir.

We are supposed to be discussing here issues which are often serious in nature  & in absence of mutual respect the discussion will only be reduced to acrimony & squabbles. It should not matter whose name sounds what. Please desist from promoting apartheid on the forum.

I also wish to point out that you don't require a guaranteer to become a  member on this list & you have done no favours to Mr. Prabhakar by introducing him to the forum. If he was worthy enough to support you on an alma mater related  issue , he could be capable  enough to articulate opinion on even more serious issues concerning the country. Why should you feel so let down by his opinion which as you have indicated does not match with yours. I do not know Mr. Prabhakar personally & I need not necessarily be in agreement or disagreement with him on issues, but you can not deprive him or for that matter anybody of  his or her  right to speak. It is unfortunate that a 'ban' was issued earlier against a member & let that not become a tool to muzzle opinion. 
Regards
LA
ps: It is not necessary to draw the gun just after mere scanning of the posts. 
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> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:50 -0400> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"> > Dear Prabhakar and Lalit,> > Prabhakar, as you were my batchmate at one of the IITs and I am the one > who introduced you to this list in the context of a list member's > abusive attack on our common alma mater, I must confess to being a > little concerned about offending you with this post, in which I shall be > contradicting your argument. Hope you will take it not personally but in > the spirit of a reasoned conversation about an extremely divisive issue > that is vitally important to us both and to every Indian, and indirectly > important to the rest of the world.> > Although I simply cannot afford to take the time to read Reader-list > posts at this time, much less post comments myself, I am now writing > specifically with you in mind, because I would like you, as my > batchmate, to know what I think is correct and why I think so. Apologies > in advance if I take a long time to respond to your, Lalit's or anyone > else's response to this post.> > That said, what I understand from a quick scan of the two comments > posted by the two of you (below) is that (a) Hindus are treated shabbily > in India, (b) Hindu extremism is a reaction to Muslim extremism in > Kashmir, and (c) someone with a Muslim name (partly in the case of > Samina) should not criticize views held by Hindus - a *section* of > Hindus in this case, as your views are not held by all Hindus as you can > see on this list, as well as in the election results of the last decade > or more.> > I think those Hindus who believe in argument (a) need to rethink the > issue in light of concrete socio-economic indicators, such as levels of > employment, education, etc., which are far lower for Muslims as far as I > know (though cannot cite figures at this time) and social practices that > result from a view - held to this day by what I believe is a large > section of Hindus - of Muslims as being alien and socially unacceptable. > A linguistic expression of this is the practice of referring to Muslims > in the words for which Radhikarajen was banned from this list. It would > be inappropriate to mention here the very common Hindi word of the > street which Radhikarajen translated into English, and which I am sure > most if not all Indians on this list are already familiar with.> > Argument (b) is ahistorical in my opinion. Radical Hinduism in fact > preceded not only radical Islamism but even Jinnah-style Islamic > politics. I pointed this out to Radhikarajen in the course of a > prolonged conversation. Please excuse me for being unable to reproduce > it here, but it can be found in the archive.> > As for argument (c), I think one's affiliation is irrelevant to his or > her right to criticize something. The argument that someone with a Hindu > name should not criticize the views of some Hindus or even Hinduism > itself, goes against modern values, which since the Enlightenment has > taught us to be rational, i.e., judge everything by reason and nothing > else. There are different kinds of rationality, of course, and > Enlightenment rationality has had some very negative consequences, but I > am referring specifically to that aspect of it which taught Christians > to criticize and challenge the church in Europe and Indian Hindus to > criticize and challenge Hinduism in the "Indian/Bengal Renaissance".> > The first led to an arguably better Christianity (in most denominations) > without excommunication, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. The > second led to an arguably better Hinduism *as a whole* without sati > (with exceptions that take place even now), virulent casteism (except > for certain regions in which caste-based killings and massacres still > take place now and then), ban on widow remarriage, etc., and a kind of > liberalism in Indian society as a whole, reflected in the Constitution, > that would have been unthinkable before it - and aspects of which, such > as the ban on sati, the already enlightened British rulers initially > opposed on political considerations.> > The question now is, are we ready to renounce those values? Personally, > I consider myself perfectly within my rights to criticize not only my > own religion but also my ethnic group, city, state, country, alma mater > and so on, right down to my own parents.> > Best,> > Tapas> > > Prabhakar Singh wrote:> > I agree with you Lalit !> > One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide.> > Regards,> > Prabhakar> > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>> > To: Samina Mishra <saminasarai at gmail.com>; reader-list at sarai.net> > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"> > > > One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history.> > > > If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route at those uninhabitable heights.> > Similarly no concern is shown for those credulous wailing mothers,orphans,widows whose dear ones continue to fall prey to pan islamic indoctrination & the mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from secular india. Terror commanders who self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks, courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest & the police action that followed).> > > > To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to avenge some perceived injustice back home.> > > > And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly.> > There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie.> > Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the valentine even.> > > > Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building process.Let us stop being parochial & selective.> > Regards all> > LA> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
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