[Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"

Sat Oct 18 13:50:02 IST 2008

Lalit,

Please read my post again. Also your own.

Tapas

2008/10/18 Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>:
> Dear Tapas,
> You seem to have drawn conclusions even without having read my post. Nowhere
> have I mentioned any thing to suggest even remotely what all you have
> alleged.
>
> Do you mean to say that to raise concerns about the menace of pan Islamism
> inspired terrorism that is prevailing in Kashmir for the past two decades &
> is also now increasing spreading in rest of india  amounts to being anti
> Muslim? I feel pain & anguish over the sufferings of credulous Muslims who
> are falling prey to indoctrination & religious blackmail & it is certainly
> not to appease you. But you seem to be justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu
> Pandits in Kashmir.
>
> We are supposed to be discussing here issues which are often serious in
> nature  & in absence of mutual respect the discussion will only be reduced
> to acrimony & squabbles. It should not matter whose name sounds what. Please
> desist from promoting apartheid on the forum.
>
> I also wish to point out that you don't require a guaranteer to become a
>  member on this list & you have done no favours to Mr. Prabhakar by
> introducing him to the forum. If he was worthy enough to support you on an
> alma mater related  issue , he could be capable  enough to articulate
> opinion on even more serious issues concerning the country. Why should you
> feel so let down by his opinion which as you have indicated does not match
> with yours. I do not know Mr. Prabhakar personally & I need not necessarily
> be in agreement or disagreement with him on issues, but you can not deprive
> him or for that matter anybody of  his or her  right to speak. It is
> unfortunate that a 'ban' was issued earlier against a member & let that not
> become a tool to muzzle opinion.
> Regards
> LA
> ps: It is not necessary to draw the gun just after mere scanning of the
> posts.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:50 -0400
>> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com
>> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"
>>
>> Dear Prabhakar and Lalit,
>>
>> Prabhakar, as you were my batchmate at one of the IITs and I am the one
>> who introduced you to this list in the context of a list member's
>> abusive attack on our common alma mater, I must confess to being a
>> little concerned about offending you with this post, in which I shall be
>> contradicting your argument. Hope you will take it not personally but in
>> the spirit of a reasoned conversation about an extremely divisive issue
>> that is vitally important to us both and to every Indian, and indirectly
>> important to the rest of the world.
>>
>> Although I simply cannot afford to take the time to read Reader-list
>> posts at this time, much less post comments myself, I am now writing
>> specifically with you in mind, because I would like you, as my
>> batchmate, to know what I think is correct and why I think so. Apologies
>> in advance if I take a long time to respond to your, Lalit's or anyone
>> else's response to this post.
>>
>> That said, what I understand from a quick scan of the two comments
>> posted by the two of you (below) is that (a) Hindus are treated shabbily
>> in India, (b) Hindu extremism is a reaction to Muslim extremism in
>> Kashmir, and (c) someone with a Muslim name (partly in the case of
>> Samina) should not criticize views held by Hindus - a *section* of
>> Hindus in this case, as your views are not held by all Hindus as you can
>> see on this list, as well as in the election results of the last decade
>> or more.
>>
>> I think those Hindus who believe in argument (a) need to rethink the
>> issue in light of concrete socio-economic indicators, such as levels of
>> employment, education, etc., which are far lower for Muslims as far as I
>> know (though cannot cite figures at this time) and social practices that
>> result from a view - held to this day by what I believe is a large
>> section of Hindus - of Muslims as being alien and socially unacceptable.
>> A linguistic expression of this is the practice of referring to Muslims
>> in the words for which Radhikarajen was banned from this list. It would
>> be inappropriate to mention here the very common Hindi word of the
>> street which Radhikarajen translated into English, and which I am sure
>> most if not all Indians on this list are already familiar with.
>>
>> Argument (b) is ahistorical in my opinion. Radical Hinduism in fact
>> preceded not only radical Islamism but even Jinnah-style Islamic
>> politics. I pointed this out to Radhikarajen in the course of a
>> prolonged conversation. Please excuse me for being unable to reproduce
>> it here, but it can be found in the archive.
>>
>> As for argument (c), I think one's affiliation is irrelevant to his or
>> her right to criticize something. The argument that someone with a Hindu
>> name should not criticize the views of some Hindus or even Hinduism
>> itself, goes against modern values, which since the Enlightenment has
>> taught us to be rational, i.e., judge everything by reason and nothing
>> else. There are different kinds of rationality, of course, and
>> Enlightenment rationality has had some very negative consequences, but I
>> am referring specifically to that aspect of it which taught Christians
>> to criticize and challenge the church in Europe and Indian Hindus to
>> criticize and challenge Hinduism in the "Indian/Bengal Renaissance".
>>
>> The first led to an arguably better Christianity (in most denominations)
>> without excommunication, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. The
>> second led to an arguably better Hinduism *as a whole* without sati
>> (with exceptions that take place even now), virulent casteism (except
>> for certain regions in which caste-based killings and massacres still
>> take place now and then), ban on widow remarriage, etc., and a kind of
>> liberalism in Indian society as a whole, reflected in the Constitution,
>> that would have been unthinkable before it - and aspects of which, such
>> as the ban on sati, the already enlightened British rulers initially
>> opposed on political considerations.
>>
>> The question now is, are we ready to renounce those values? Personally,
>> I consider myself perfectly within my rights to criticize not only my
>> own religion but also my ethnic group, city, state, country, alma mater
>> and so on, right down to my own parents.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Tapas
>>
>>
>> Prabhakar Singh wrote:
>> > I agree with you Lalit !
>> > One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is
>> > more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like
>> > this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus
>> > for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her
>> > name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated
>> > for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have
>> > some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and
>> > the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide.
>> > Regards,
>> > Prabhakar
>> >
>>
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>
>> > To: Samina Mishra <saminasarai at gmail.com>; reader-list at sarai.net
>> > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"
>> >
>> > One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please-
>> > it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials
>> > only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated
>> > structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing
>> > obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history.
>> >
>> > If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding
>> > Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively
>> > targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving
>> > their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu
>> > Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular
>> > activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar
>> > streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the
>> > development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage
>> > route at those uninhabitable heights.
>> > Similarly no concern is shown for those credulous wailing
>> > mothers,orphans,widows whose dear ones continue to fall prey to pan islamic
>> > indoctrination & the mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession
>> > of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from secular india. Terror commanders who
>> > self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun'
>> > culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks,
>> > courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one
>> > such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of
>> > Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him
>> > international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri
>> > Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged &
>> > hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest
>> > & the police action that followed).
>> >
>> > To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved
>> > only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the
>> > ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it
>> > is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self
>> > pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to
>> > the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to
>> > understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired
>> > indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in
>> > denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru
>> > born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to
>> > avenge some perceived injustice back home.
>> >
>> > And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are
>> > expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly.
>> > There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever
>> > there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie.
>> > Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no
>> > reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the
>> > valentine even.
>> >
>> > Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will
>> > be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building
>> > process.Let us stop being parochial & selective.
>> > Regards all
>> > LA
>> >
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> _________________________________________
>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>> Critiques & Collaborations
>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>> subscribe in the subject header.
>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
>
>
> ________________________________
> MSN Technology brings you the latest on gadgets, gizmos and the new hits in
> the gaming market. Try it now!