[Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution.

[Aditya Raj Kaul]

Kirdar ji,

Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were converted by
Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They were
bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think that is
legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's.

I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live happily.

Love
Aditya Raj Kaul

On 10/18/08, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you
> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he
> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship?
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh
>
> <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Dear Kirdar Ji,
> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account
> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" :
> one of the four castes of Hindus.
> > Regards,
> > Prabhakar
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
> > To: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>; reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
> caution.
> >
> > Prabhakar ji
> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below:
> >
> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of
> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in
> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu
> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India
> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible
> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to
> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher"
> >
> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or
> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political
> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed
> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular
> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory
> > manner as well.
> >
> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is
> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English
> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects
> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king
> > or mayor.
> >
> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its
> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which,
> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its
> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of
> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth
> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were
> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News,
> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term
> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary
> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also
> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer
> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable
> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe
> > Lieberman.
> >
> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print
> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the
> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also
> > be referred to as talking heads.
> >
> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on
> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular
> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His
> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others,
> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express
> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2]
> >
> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by
> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact
> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or
> > observations[3].
> >
> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert
> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as
> > well.
> >
> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a
> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe
> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively,
> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play.
> >
> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits:
> >
> >     * Australia
> >           o Andrew Bolt
> >           o Phil Cleary
> >           o Germaine Greer
> >           o John Laws
> >           o Glenn Milne
> >
> >     * Brazil
> >           o Olavo de Carvalho
> >           o Reinaldo Azevedo
> >
> >     * Canada
> >           o Michael Coren
> >
> >     * Chile
> >           o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce
> >           o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez
> >           o Patricio Navia
> >           o Miljenko R. Marinkovic
> >
> >     * Hong Kong, China
> >           o Ivan Choy
> >
> >     * India
> >           o Cho Ramaswamy
> >
> >     * Spain
> >           o Federico Jiménez Losantos
> >           o Iñaki Gabilondo
> >           o Luis del Olmo
> >
> >     * United Kingdom
> >           o David Aaronovitch
> >           o Gary Lineker
> >           o Matthew Le Tissier
> >           o Tim Henman
> >           o Andy Gray
> >           o John Motson
> >           o Martin Tyler
> >           o Vanessa Feltz
> >           o Germaine Greer
> >           o Christopher Hitchens
> >           o Peter Hitchens
> >           o John McCririck
> >           o George Monbiot
> >           o Melanie Phillips
> >
> >     * United States
> >           o Glenn Beck
> >           o Neal Boortz
> >           o Tucker Carlson
> >           o Stephen Colbert
> >           o Alan Colmes
> >           o Ann Coulter
> >           o Lou Dobbs
> >           o Roger Ebert
> >           o Al Franken
> >           o Nancy Grace
> >           o Sean Hannity
> >           o Christopher Hitchens
> >           o Ezra Klein
> >           o Rush Limbaugh
> >           o Rachel Maddow
> >           o Bill Maher
> >           o Michelle Malkin
> >           o Chris Matthews
> >           o Keith Olbermann
> >o Bill O'Reilly
> >           o Joe Scarborough
> >           o Michael Savage
> >           o Mark Steyn
> >           o Jon Stewart
> >
> > Sports Pundits
> >           o Skip Bayless
> >           o Mike Francesa
> >           o Peter Gammons
> >           o Mike Golic
> >           o Mike Greenberg
> >           o Jay Mariotti
> >           o Woody Paige
> >           o Jim Rome
> >           o Chris Russo
> >           o Stephen A. Smith
> >           o Dick Vitale
> >           o Michael Wilbon
> >           o Tony Kornheiser
> >           o Lou Holtz
> >           o Keyman Ma
> >
> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to
> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for
> > the British.
> >
> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the
> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted
> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just
> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire
> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set
> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to
> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region
> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'.
> >
> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the
> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow
> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team.
> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised
> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from
> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them
> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans,
> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama
> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits.
> >
> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their
> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make
> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked
> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108
> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a
> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist
> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat
> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers:
> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel
> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this
> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of
> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite
> > that during their travels.
> >
> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned
> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of
> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received
> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them
> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they
> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with
> > remarkable precision.
> >
> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as
> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British
> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions,
> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The
> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the
> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law.
> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some
> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing
> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the
> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their
> > official use.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh
> > <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a
> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only
> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular
> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are
> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
> caution.
> >>
> >> Dear Bhat sahib
> >>
> >> briefly,  about me,  what you  are saying ,  i have never said.
> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that  'Islamic rule in place
> >> democratic rule of laws'.
> >>
> >> now i quote you again,
> >>
> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation,
> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be
> >> violent.
> >>
> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you
> >> justify violence.  i dont support this thinking. that is normal.  i
> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion.
> >>
> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one
> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or
> >> temples, churches even )  or the other where one voluntarily joins the
> >> demolition  ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa )
> >>
> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other
> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those.
> >> Strange that you  believe India belongs to Hindus only.
> >>
> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that
> >> his identity as  Hindu is ' unfortunate'  in comparision to his
> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that  being Hindu is only his
> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that
> >> in his own way, but  dont you see the point....... and in Indian,
> >> these ( kshmendra like )  identities are in millions, because Hinduism
> >> can not be defined as such.
> >>
> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of
> >> ordinary  Indians. Why dont you see the game ?
> >>
> >> warmly
> >> is
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat
> >> <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> Inder salim
> >>>      With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with
> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts
> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the
> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of
> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of
> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with
> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of
> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you
> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik,
> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to
> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they
> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as
> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these
> rotten
> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith.,
> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan,  to clean out hindus by
> violence..Let it be borne in mind that  in the continent, 457 kingdoms that
> were there at the time  of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings
> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not
> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation,
> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the
> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small
> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of
> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and
> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society
> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other
> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better
> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.?
> >>>
> >>>  Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent
> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash
> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken
> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks
> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how
> if they are divided the 2  percent community can take over the rule of the
> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking
> the divided  society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction,
> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the
> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of
> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other
> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them
> to distribute the butter equally for them.!
> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our
> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is
> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal,
> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is
> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith,
> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes
> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his
> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who
> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must
> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a
> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what
> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation,
> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.?
> >>>
> >>>  Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that
> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british
> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a
> temple in the land, disputed land was  destroyed for this structure to be
> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in
> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained
> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had
> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the
> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a
> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India,
> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement,
> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.!
> >>>
> >>>    Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any
> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence,
> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to
> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any
> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when
> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or
> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are
> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest,
> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound
> to be violent.
> >>>  Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very
> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.?
> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others,
> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most
> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain
> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all
> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts
> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and
> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but
> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress
> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but
> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to
> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list
> made one
> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.?
> >>>
> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger.
> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>
> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger.
> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger.
> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php
> >
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
>
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>