[Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution.
kirdar singh
kirdarsingh at gmail.com
Sun Oct 19 10:02:58 IST 2008
Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them
education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at
gun point in Orissa.
You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system."
-- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON
You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your
ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't
show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also
have to intentions to spoil your happiness.
On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
<kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Kirdar ji,
>
> Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were converted by
> Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They were
> bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think that is
> legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's.
>
> I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live happily.
>
> Love
> Aditya Raj Kaul
>
> On 10/18/08, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you
>> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he
>> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship?
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh
>>
>> <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Dear Kirdar Ji,
>> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account
>> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" :
>> one of the four castes of Hindus.
>> > Regards,
>> > Prabhakar
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
>> > To: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
>> > Cc: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>; reader-list at sarai.net
>> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
>> caution.
>> >
>> > Prabhakar ji
>> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below:
>> >
>> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of
>> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in
>> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu
>> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India
>> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible
>> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to
>> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher"
>> >
>> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or
>> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political
>> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed
>> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular
>> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory
>> > manner as well.
>> >
>> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is
>> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English
>> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects
>> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king
>> > or mayor.
>> >
>> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its
>> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which,
>> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its
>> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of
>> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth
>> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were
>> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News,
>> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term
>> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary
>> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also
>> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer
>> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable
>> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe
>> > Lieberman.
>> >
>> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print
>> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the
>> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also
>> > be referred to as talking heads.
>> >
>> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on
>> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular
>> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His
>> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others,
>> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express
>> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2]
>> >
>> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by
>> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact
>> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or
>> > observations[3].
>> >
>> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert
>> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as
>> > well.
>> >
>> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a
>> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe
>> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively,
>> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play.
>> >
>> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits:
>> >
>> > * Australia
>> > o Andrew Bolt
>> > o Phil Cleary
>> > o Germaine Greer
>> > o John Laws
>> > o Glenn Milne
>> >
>> > * Brazil
>> > o Olavo de Carvalho
>> > o Reinaldo Azevedo
>> >
>> > * Canada
>> > o Michael Coren
>> >
>> > * Chile
>> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce
>> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez
>> > o Patricio Navia
>> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic
>> >
>> > * Hong Kong, China
>> > o Ivan Choy
>> >
>> > * India
>> > o Cho Ramaswamy
>> >
>> > * Spain
>> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos
>> > o Iñaki Gabilondo
>> > o Luis del Olmo
>> >
>> > * United Kingdom
>> > o David Aaronovitch
>> > o Gary Lineker
>> > o Matthew Le Tissier
>> > o Tim Henman
>> > o Andy Gray
>> > o John Motson
>> > o Martin Tyler
>> > o Vanessa Feltz
>> > o Germaine Greer
>> > o Christopher Hitchens
>> > o Peter Hitchens
>> > o John McCririck
>> > o George Monbiot
>> > o Melanie Phillips
>> >
>> > * United States
>> > o Glenn Beck
>> > o Neal Boortz
>> > o Tucker Carlson
>> > o Stephen Colbert
>> > o Alan Colmes
>> > o Ann Coulter
>> > o Lou Dobbs
>> > o Roger Ebert
>> > o Al Franken
>> > o Nancy Grace
>> > o Sean Hannity
>> > o Christopher Hitchens
>> > o Ezra Klein
>> > o Rush Limbaugh
>> > o Rachel Maddow
>> > o Bill Maher
>> > o Michelle Malkin
>> > o Chris Matthews
>> > o Keith Olbermann
>> >o Bill O'Reilly
>> > o Joe Scarborough
>> > o Michael Savage
>> > o Mark Steyn
>> > o Jon Stewart
>> >
>> > Sports Pundits
>> > o Skip Bayless
>> > o Mike Francesa
>> > o Peter Gammons
>> > o Mike Golic
>> > o Mike Greenberg
>> > o Jay Mariotti
>> > o Woody Paige
>> > o Jim Rome
>> > o Chris Russo
>> > o Stephen A. Smith
>> > o Dick Vitale
>> > o Michael Wilbon
>> > o Tony Kornheiser
>> > o Lou Holtz
>> > o Keyman Ma
>> >
>> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to
>> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for
>> > the British.
>> >
>> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the
>> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted
>> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just
>> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire
>> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set
>> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to
>> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region
>> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'.
>> >
>> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the
>> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow
>> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team.
>> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised
>> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from
>> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them
>> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans,
>> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama
>> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits.
>> >
>> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their
>> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make
>> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked
>> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108
>> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a
>> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist
>> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat
>> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers:
>> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel
>> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this
>> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of
>> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite
>> > that during their travels.
>> >
>> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned
>> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of
>> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received
>> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them
>> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they
>> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with
>> > remarkable precision.
>> >
>> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as
>> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British
>> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions,
>> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The
>> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the
>> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law.
>> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some
>> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing
>> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the
>> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their
>> > official use.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh
>> > <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a
>> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only
>> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular
>> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are
>> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----
>> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
>> caution.
>> >>
>> >> Dear Bhat sahib
>> >>
>> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said.
>> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place
>> >> democratic rule of laws'.
>> >>
>> >> now i quote you again,
>> >>
>> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation,
>> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be
>> >> violent.
>> >>
>> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you
>> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i
>> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion.
>> >>
>> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one
>> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or
>> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the
>> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa )
>> >>
>> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other
>> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those.
>> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only.
>> >>
>> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that
>> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his
>> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his
>> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that
>> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian,
>> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism
>> >> can notbe defined as such.
>> >>
>> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of
>> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ?
>> >>
>> >> warmly
>> >> is
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat
>> >> <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>> Inder salim
>> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with
>> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts
>> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the
>> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of
>> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of
>> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with
>> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of
>> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you
>> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik,
>> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to
>> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they
>> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as
>> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these
>> rotten
>> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith.,
>> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by
>> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that
>> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings
>> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not
>> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation,
>> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the
>> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small
>> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of
>> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and
>> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society
>> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other
>> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better
>> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.?
>> >>>
>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent
>> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash
>> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken
>> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks
>> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how
>> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the
>> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking
>> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction,
>> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the
>> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of
>> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other
>> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them
>> to distribute the butter equally for them.!
>> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our
>> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is
>> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal,
>> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is
>> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith,
>> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes
>> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his
>> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who
>> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must
>> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a
>> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what
>> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation,
>> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.?
>> >>>
>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that
>> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british
>> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a
>> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be
>> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in
>> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained
>> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had
>> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the
>> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a
>> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India,
>> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement,
>> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.!
>> >>>
>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any
>> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence,
>> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to
>> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any
>> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when
>> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or
>> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are
>> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest,
>> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound
>> to be violent.
>> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very
>> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.?
>> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others,
>> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most
>> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain
>> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all
>> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts
>> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and
>> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but
>> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress
>> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but
>> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to
>> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list
>> made one
>> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.?
>> >>>
>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger.
>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>> >> _________________________________________
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