[Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution.
Real Unreal
hiddenbuthere at gmail.com
Sun Oct 19 10:24:37 IST 2008
On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Real Unreal <hiddenbuthere at gmail.com> wrote:
> is aditya pandit poot kay lund pa abi dunda nahi pada hai
> jawan hai, do teen dili ki bilayan jaab panja gardan pa maar dangai,
> to bolna seekh jaya ga
> vasay parveen tagodia say milanay to jagta hi hoga,
> suna ha londoon ka bada shokeen hai
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them
>> education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at
>> gun point in Orissa.
>>
>> You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system."
>> -- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON
>>
>> You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your
>> ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't
>> show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also
>> have to intentions to spoil your happiness.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Kirdar ji,
>>>
>>> Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were converted by
>>> Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They were
>>> bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think that is
>>> legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's.
>>>
>>> I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live happily.
>>>
>>> Love
>>> Aditya Raj Kaul
>>>
>>> On 10/18/08, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you
>>>> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he
>>>> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh
>>>>
>>>> <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> > Dear Kirdar Ji,
>>>> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account
>>>> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" :
>>>> one of the four castes of Hindus.
>>>> > Regards,
>>>> > Prabhakar
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----
>>>> > From: kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
>>>> > To: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
>>>> > Cc: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>; reader-list at sarai.net
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
>>>> caution.
>>>> >
>>>> > Prabhakar ji
>>>> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below:
>>>> >
>>>> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of
>>>> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in
>>>> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu
>>>> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India
>>>> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible
>>>> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to
>>>> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher"
>>>> >
>>>> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or
>>>> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political
>>>> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed
>>>> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular
>>>> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory
>>>> > manner as well.
>>>> >
>>>> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is
>>>> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English
>>>> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects
>>>> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king
>>>> > or mayor.
>>>> >
>>>> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its
>>>> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which,
>>>> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its
>>>> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of
>>>> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth
>>>> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were
>>>> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News,
>>>> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term
>>>> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary
>>>> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also
>>>> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer
>>>> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable
>>>> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe
>>>> > Lieberman.
>>>> >
>>>> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print
>>>> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the
>>>> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also
>>>> > be referred to as talking heads.
>>>> >
>>>> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on
>>>> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular
>>>> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His
>>>> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others,
>>>> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express
>>>> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2]
>>>> >
>>>> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by
>>>> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact
>>>> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or
>>>> > observations[3].
>>>> >
>>>> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert
>>>> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as
>>>> > well.
>>>> >
>>>> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a
>>>> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe
>>>> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively,
>>>> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play.
>>>> >
>>>> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits:
>>>> >
>>>> > * Australia
>>>> > o Andrew Bolt
>>>> > o Phil Cleary
>>>> > o Germaine Greer
>>>> > o John Laws
>>>> > o Glenn Milne
>>>> >
>>>> > * Brazil
>>>> > o Olavo de Carvalho
>>>> > o Reinaldo Azevedo
>>>> >
>>>> > * Canada
>>>> > o Michael Coren
>>>> >
>>>> > * Chile
>>>> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce
>>>> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez
>>>> > o Patricio Navia
>>>> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic
>>>> >
>>>> > * Hong Kong, China
>>>> > o Ivan Choy
>>>> >
>>>> > * India
>>>> > o Cho Ramaswamy
>>>> >
>>>> > * Spain
>>>> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos
>>>> > o Iñaki Gabilondo
>>>> > o Luis del Olmo
>>>> >
>>>> > * United Kingdom
>>>> > o David Aaronovitch
>>>> > o Gary Lineker
>>>> > o Matthew Le Tissier
>>>> > o Tim Henman
>>>> > o Andy Gray
>>>> > o John Motson
>>>> > o Martin Tyler
>>>> > o Vanessa Feltz
>>>> > o Germaine Greer
>>>> > o Christopher Hitchens
>>>> > o Peter Hitchens
>>>> > o John McCririck
>>>> > o George Monbiot
>>>> > o Melanie Phillips
>>>> >
>>>> > * United States
>>>> > o Glenn Beck
>>>> > o Neal Boortz
>>>> > o Tucker Carlson
>>>> > o Stephen Colbert
>>>> > o Alan Colmes
>>>> > o Ann Coulter
>>>> > o Lou Dobbs
>>>> > o Roger Ebert
>>>> > o Al Franken
>>>> > o Nancy Grace
>>>> > o Sean Hannity
>>>> > o Christopher Hitchens
>>>> > o Ezra Klein
>>>> > o Rush Limbaugh
>>>> > o Rachel Maddow
>>>> > o Bill Maher
>>>> > o Michelle Malkin
>>>> > o Chris Matthews
>>>> > o Keith Olbermann
>>>> >o Bill O'Reilly
>>>> > o Joe Scarborough
>>>> > o Michael Savage
>>>> > o Mark Steyn
>>>> > o Jon Stewart
>>>> >
>>>> > Sports Pundits
>>>> > o Skip Bayless
>>>> > o Mike Francesa
>>>> > o Peter Gammons
>>>> > o Mike Golic
>>>> > o Mike Greenberg
>>>> > o Jay Mariotti
>>>> > o Woody Paige
>>>> > o Jim Rome
>>>> > o Chris Russo
>>>> > o Stephen A. Smith
>>>> > o Dick Vitale
>>>> > o Michael Wilbon
>>>> > o Tony Kornheiser
>>>> > o Lou Holtz
>>>> > o Keyman Ma
>>>> >
>>>> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to
>>>> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for
>>>> > the British.
>>>> >
>>>> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the
>>>> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted
>>>> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just
>>>> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire
>>>> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set
>>>> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to
>>>> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region
>>>> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'.
>>>> >
>>>> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the
>>>> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow
>>>> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team.
>>>> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised
>>>> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from
>>>> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them
>>>> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans,
>>>> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama
>>>> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits.
>>>> >
>>>> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their
>>>> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make
>>>> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked
>>>> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108
>>>> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a
>>>> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist
>>>> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat
>>>> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers:
>>>> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel
>>>> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this
>>>> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of
>>>> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite
>>>> > that during their travels.
>>>> >
>>>> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned
>>>> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of
>>>> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received
>>>> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them
>>>> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they
>>>> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with
>>>> > remarkable precision.
>>>> >
>>>> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as
>>>> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British
>>>> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions,
>>>> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The
>>>> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the
>>>> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law.
>>>> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some
>>>> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing
>>>> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the
>>>> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their
>>>> > official use.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh
>>>> > <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a
>>>> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only
>>>> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular
>>>> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are
>>>> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
>>>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
>>>> caution.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Dear Bhat sahib
>>>> >>
>>>> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said.
>>>> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place
>>>> >> democratic rule of laws'.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> now i quote you again,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation,
>>>> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be
>>>> >> violent.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you
>>>> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i
>>>> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one
>>>> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or
>>>> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the
>>>> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa )
>>>> >>
>>>> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other
>>>> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those.
>>>> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that
>>>> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his
>>>> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his
>>>> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that
>>>> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian,
>>>> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism
>>>> >> can notbe defined as such.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of
>>>> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> warmly
>>>> >> is
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat
>>>> >> <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> Inder salim
>>>> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with
>>>> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts
>>>> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the
>>>> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of
>>>> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of
>>>> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with
>>>> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of
>>>> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you
>>>> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik,
>>>> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to
>>>> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they
>>>> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as
>>>> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these
>>>> rotten
>>>> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith.,
>>>> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by
>>>> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that
>>>> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings
>>>> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not
>>>> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation,
>>>> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the
>>>> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small
>>>> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of
>>>> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and
>>>> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society
>>>> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other
>>>> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better
>>>> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent
>>>> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash
>>>> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken
>>>> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks
>>>> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how
>>>> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the
>>>> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking
>>>> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction,
>>>> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the
>>>> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of
>>>> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other
>>>> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them
>>>> to distribute the butter equally for them.!
>>>> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our
>>>> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is
>>>> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal,
>>>> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is
>>>> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith,
>>>> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes
>>>> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his
>>>> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who
>>>> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must
>>>> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a
>>>> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what
>>>> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation,
>>>> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that
>>>> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british
>>>> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a
>>>> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be
>>>> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in
>>>> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained
>>>> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had
>>>> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the
>>>> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a
>>>> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India,
>>>> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement,
>>>> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any
>>>> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence,
>>>> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to
>>>> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any
>>>> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when
>>>> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or
>>>> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are
>>>> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest,
>>>> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound
>>>> to be violent.
>>>> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very
>>>> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.?
>>>> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others,
>>>> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most
>>>> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain
>>>> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all
>>>> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts
>>>> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faithsand
>>>> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but
>>>> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress
>>>> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but
>>>> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to
>>>> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list
>>>> made one
>>>> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger.
>>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
>>>> >> _________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>>> >
>>>> _________________________________________
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>>> _________________________________________
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