[Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution.
Aditya Raj Kaul
kauladityaraj at gmail.com
Sun Oct 19 12:34:56 IST 2008
Akal ke andho ko, jitna samjao unke liye "foreign language" hai.... So they
are best ignored..
On 10/19/08, Real Unreal <hiddenbuthere at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Real Unreal <hiddenbuthere at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > is aditya pandit poot kay lund pa abi dunda nahi pada hai
> > jawan hai, do teen dili ki bilayan jaab panja gardan pa maar dangai,
> > to bolna seekh jaya ga
> > vasay parveen tagodia say milanay to jagta hi hoga,
> > suna ha londoon ka bada shokeen hai
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them
> >> education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at
> >> gun point in Orissa.
> >>
> >> You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system."
> >> -- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON
> >>
> >> You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your
> >> ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't
> >> show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also
> >> have to intentions to spoil your happiness.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Kirdar ji,
> >>>
> >>> Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were
> converted by
> >>> Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They
> were
> >>> bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think
> that is
> >>> legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's.
> >>>
> >>> I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live
> happily.
> >>>
> >>> Love
> >>> Aditya Raj Kaul
> >>>
> >>> On 10/18/08, kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you
> >>>> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he
> >>>> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh
> >>>>
> >>>> <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> > Dear Kirdar Ji,
> >>>> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening
> account
> >>>> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was
> "Brahmin" :
> >>>> one of the four castes of Hindus.
> >>>> > Regards,
> >>>> > Prabhakar
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ----- Original Message ----
> >>>> > From: kirdar singh <kirdarsingh at gmail.com>
> >>>> > To: Prabhakar Singh <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com>
> >>>> > Cc: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>; reader-list at sarai.net
> >>>> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM
> >>>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
> >>>> caution.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Prabhakar ji
> >>>> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use
> of
> >>>> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court
> in
> >>>> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu
> >>>> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of
> India
> >>>> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible
> >>>> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to
> >>>> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher"
> >>>> >
> >>>> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or
> >>>> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political
> >>>> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed
> >>>> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to
> popular
> >>>> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a
> derogatory
> >>>> > manner as well.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is
> >>>> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in
> English
> >>>> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects
> >>>> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king
> >>>> > or mayor.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its
> >>>> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which,
> >>>> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its
> >>>> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of
> >>>> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and
> early-twentieth
> >>>> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were
> >>>> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily
> News,
> >>>> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term
> >>>> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary
> >>>> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also
> >>>> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer
> >>>> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable
> >>>> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe
> >>>> > Lieberman.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print
> >>>> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the
> >>>> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may
> also
> >>>> > be referred to as talking heads.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on
> >>>> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular
> >>>> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His
> >>>> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led
> others,
> >>>> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express
> >>>> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2]
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by
> >>>> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in
> fact
> >>>> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or
> >>>> > observations[3].
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert
> >>>> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as
> >>>> > well.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a
> >>>> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will
> describe
> >>>> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively,
> >>>> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * Australia
> >>>> > o Andrew Bolt
> >>>> > o Phil Cleary
> >>>> > o Germaine Greer
> >>>> > o John Laws
> >>>> > o Glenn Milne
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * Brazil
> >>>> > o Olavo de Carvalho
> >>>> > o Reinaldo Azevedo
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * Canada
> >>>> > o Michael Coren
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * Chile
> >>>> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce
> >>>> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez
> >>>> > o Patricio Navia
> >>>> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * Hong Kong, China
> >>>> > o Ivan Choy
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * India
> >>>> > o Cho Ramaswamy
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * Spain
> >>>> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos
> >>>> > o Iñaki Gabilondo
> >>>> > o Luis del Olmo
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * United Kingdom
> >>>> > o David Aaronovitch
> >>>> > o Gary Lineker
> >>>> > o Matthew Le Tissier
> >>>> > o Tim Henman
> >>>> > o Andy Gray
> >>>> > o John Motson
> >>>> > o Martin Tyler
> >>>> > o Vanessa Feltz
> >>>> > o Germaine Greer
> >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens
> >>>> > o Peter Hitchens
> >>>> > o John McCririck
> >>>> > o George Monbiot
> >>>> > o Melanie Phillips
> >>>> >
> >>>> > * United States
> >>>> > o Glenn Beck
> >>>> > o Neal Boortz
> >>>> > o Tucker Carlson
> >>>> > o Stephen Colbert
> >>>> > o Alan Colmes
> >>>> > o Ann Coulter
> >>>> > o Lou Dobbs
> >>>> > o Roger Ebert
> >>>> > o Al Franken
> >>>> > o Nancy Grace
> >>>> > o Sean Hannity
> >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens
> >>>> > o Ezra Klein
> >>>> > o Rush Limbaugh
> >>>> > o Rachel Maddow
> >>>> > o Bill Maher
> >>>> > o Michelle Malkin
> >>>> > o Chris Matthews
> >>>> > o Keith Olbermann
> >>>> >o Bill O'Reilly
> >>>> > o Joe Scarborough
> >>>> > o Michael Savage
> >>>> > o Mark Steyn
> >>>> > o Jon Stewart
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Sports Pundits
> >>>> > o Skip Bayless
> >>>> > o Mike Francesa
> >>>> > o Peter Gammons
> >>>> > o Mike Golic
> >>>> > o Mike Greenberg
> >>>> > o Jay Mariotti
> >>>> > o Woody Paige
> >>>> > o Jim Rome
> >>>> > o Chris Russo
> >>>> > o Stephen A. Smith
> >>>> > o Dick Vitale
> >>>> > o Michael Wilbon
> >>>> > o Tony Kornheiser
> >>>> > o Lou Holtz
> >>>> > o Keyman Ma
> >>>> >
> >>>> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to
> >>>> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India
> for
> >>>> > the British.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the
> >>>> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted
> >>>> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not
> just
> >>>> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their
> empire
> >>>> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set
> >>>> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried
> to
> >>>> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region
> >>>> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of
> the
> >>>> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow
> >>>> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying
> team.
> >>>> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey,
> realised
> >>>> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from
> >>>> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them
> >>>> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans,
> >>>> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a
> lama
> >>>> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make
> their
> >>>> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make
> >>>> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what
> looked
> >>>> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108
> >>>> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a
> >>>> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist
> >>>> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh
> Rawat
> >>>> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious
> co-travelers:
> >>>> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel
> >>>> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually
> this
> >>>> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of
> >>>> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite
> >>>> > that during their travels.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned
> >>>> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of
> >>>> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also
> received
> >>>> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them
> >>>> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels
> they
> >>>> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with
> >>>> > remarkable precision.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed
> as
> >>>> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially,
> British
> >>>> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral
> traditions,
> >>>> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions.
> The
> >>>> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the
> >>>> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu
> law.
> >>>> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some
> >>>> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing
> >>>> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of
> the
> >>>> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their
> >>>> > official use.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh
> >>>> > <prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without
> being a
> >>>> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only
> >>>> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only
> singular
> >>>> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who
> are
> >>>> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >>>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >>>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM
> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with
> >>>> caution.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Dear Bhat sahib
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said.
> >>>> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in
> place
> >>>> >> democratic rule of laws'.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> now i quote you again,
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest,
> investigation,
> >>>> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be
> >>>> >> violent.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you
> >>>> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i
> >>>> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one
> >>>> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or
> >>>> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins
> the
> >>>> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa )
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the
> other
> >>>> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those.
> >>>> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear
> that
> >>>> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his
> >>>> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his
> >>>> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied
> that
> >>>> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian,
> >>>> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because
> Hinduism
>
> >>>> >> can notbe defined as such.
>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking
> of
> >>>> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> warmly
> >>>> >> is
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat
> >>>> >> <raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> >>> Inder salim
> >>>> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with
> >>>> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the
> thoughts
> >>>> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in
> the
> >>>> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of
> >>>> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens
> of
> >>>> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation
> with
> >>>> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of
> >>>> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with
> you
> >>>> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin
> malik,
> >>>> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside
> to
> >>>> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the
> area they
> >>>> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of
> laws as
> >>>> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are
> these
> >>>> rotten
> >>>> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith.,
> >>>> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by
> >>>> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms
> that
> >>>> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic
> kings
> >>>> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did
> not
> >>>> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a
> nation,
> >>>> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the
> >>>> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that
> small
> >>>> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens
> out of
> >>>> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected
> and
> >>>> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the
> society
> >>>> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed
> other
> >>>> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste,
> better
> >>>> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left
> idealogy.?
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are
> tolerent
> >>>> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India
> to bash
> >>>> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be
> taken
> >>>> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote
> banks
> >>>> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have
> understood how
> >>>> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of
> the
> >>>> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush
> attacking
> >>>> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass
> destruction,
> >>>> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as
> the
> >>>> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim
> followers of
> >>>> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each
> other
> >>>> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is
> offering them
> >>>> to distribute the butter equally for them.!
> >>>> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in
> our
> >>>> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind
> is
> >>>> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very
> personal,
> >>>> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It
> is
> >>>> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different
> faith,
> >>>> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner
> votes
> >>>> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to
> his
> >>>> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or
> gowda who
> >>>> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen
> must
> >>>> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a
> >>>> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society,
> what
> >>>> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the
> nation,
> >>>> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care
> facilities.?
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true
> that
> >>>> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the
> british
> >>>> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that
> a
> >>>> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to
> be
> >>>> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all
> muslims in
> >>>> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we
> remained
> >>>> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only
> courts had
> >>>> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and
> the
> >>>> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is
> a
> >>>> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free
> India,
> >>>> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of
> appeasement,
> >>>> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.!
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any
> >>>> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the
> violence,
> >>>> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as
> a to
> >>>> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify
> any
> >>>> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is
> when
> >>>> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are
> burnt, or
> >>>> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers
> are
> >>>> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest,
> >>>> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is
> bound
> >>>> to be violent.
> >>>> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very
> >>>> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very
> civilised.?
> >>>> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of
> others,
> >>>> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most
> >>>> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are
> brain
> >>>> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from
> all
> >>>> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational
> thoughts
> >>>> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all
> faithsand
> >>>> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but
> >>>> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head
> mistress
> >>>> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next
> week, but
> >>>> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I
> prefer to
> >>>> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on
> the list
> >>>> made one
> >>>> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.?
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo!
> Messenger.
> >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> >>>> >> _________________________________________
> >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
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