[Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?

Tue Oct 21 19:31:26 IST 2008

Did I say there's something wrong with that? That's a strawman

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> If minorities of INDIA enjoying spectaculous reservations and benefits and damaging the country like anything, whats wrong if a single state provide reservation to pandits?Today Maharashtra,tomorrow every state in India will do so?
>
> Regards,
> Dhatri.
>
> --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>
> From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> To: "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail..com>
> Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:48 PM
>
> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a
> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia.
> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5%
> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits?
>
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country ,
> so
> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a disinformation
> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed
> > more closely.
> >
> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links
> > ascertained.
> >
> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pawan
> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind
> >
> >
> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
> <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches,
> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder
> >> when they will join the mainstream?
> >>
> >> best
> >> shivam
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream?
> >> > By M.V. Kamath
> >> >
> >> > Organiser
> >> >
> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary
> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to
> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing
> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from
> the
> >> > Indian mainstream.
> >> >
> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of
> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim
> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western
> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim
> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only
> alienate
> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further.
> >> >
> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is
> bad
> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more
> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it
> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the
> medieval
> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under-
> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha.
> But
> >> > then whose fault is it.
> >> >
> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being
> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support..
> Past
> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails
> Muslims
> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last
> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of
> seats
> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population
> were
> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own,
> forfeited
> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart
> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly
> win
> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter?
> >> >
> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections,
> if
> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have
> got
> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha
> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the
> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims
> won
> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third
> Lok
> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have
> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of
> seats
> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though
> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats
> they
> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad.
> >> >
> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number
> of
> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth
> to
> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats
> but
> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The
> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined
> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims
> got
> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM,
> four
> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties.
> >> >
> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and
> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of
> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by
> putting
> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when
> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be
> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and
> allied
> >> > religions.
> >> >
> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that
> hating
> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad
> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They
> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no
> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth
> to
> >> > win their favour.
> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of
> Muslims
> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra,
> a
> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent
> figure
> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream
> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party
> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win.
> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but
> >> > only seven could succeed.
> >> >
> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim
> citizens
> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving
> people
> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the
> Shah
> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an
> ISI-financed
> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom
> themselves
> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the
> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims,
> the
> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves
> that
> >> > you want to stay separate.
> >> >
> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the
> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women.
> >> >
> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to
> adhere
> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not
> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not
> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or
> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they
> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes.
> An
> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own
> Indian
> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary
> Muslims
> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram
> because
> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to
> Durga.
> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim!
> >> >
> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his
> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic
> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to
> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser
> Islamic
> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book.
> >> >
> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their
> cue
> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not
> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it.
> Muslims
> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy
> and
> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to
> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a
> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims,
> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be
> >> > shunned like the very devil.
> >> >
> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs
> to
> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community..
> Sareh
> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission.
> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time
> may
> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may
> vote
> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime
> Minister?
> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh?
> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?
> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=
> >> >
> >> > 150&page=12 ---
> >> >
> ......................................................................
> >> > ....................................
> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm
> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past
> >> > Mayank Patel
> >> >
> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong
> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany
> and
> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past
> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action
> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and
> >> > reconciliation.
> >> >
> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial,
> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than
> generous
> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc..
> who
> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have
> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of
> Indian
> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection
> tactic
> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition.
> >> >
> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond
> reasonable
> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single
> agenda
> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming
> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that
> election.
> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring
> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting
> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters.
> >> >
> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should
> not be
> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly
> presumes
> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course
> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake
> could
> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary,
> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen
> far
> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal
> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure.
> >> >
> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong
> Indian
> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would
> not wish
> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also
> certain
> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is
> quite
> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are
> 165
> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over
> India"s
> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not
> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and
> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation.
> On
> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not
> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers.
> >> >
> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial
> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence
> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies
> who
> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are
> not
> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this
> alleged
> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims
> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion.
> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis.
> >> >
> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes.
> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement.
> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can
> often
> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be
> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian
> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi
> ve
> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor
> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of
> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide
> allies
> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims.
> >> >
> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes.
> More-over,
> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over
> reliance
> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological
> beef
> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse.
> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing
> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing
> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation.
> >> >
> >> > Related story:
> >> >
> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @
> >> >
> http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-%
> >> > e2%80%93-history/
> >> > _________________________________________
> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> > Critiques & Collaborations
> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> > subscribe in the subject header.
> >> > To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> > List archive:
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> >> _________________________________________
> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >> Critiques & Collaborations
> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> >> subscribe in the subject header.
> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> >> List archive:
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in
> the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>

--
National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/