[Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?

Wed Oct 22 17:54:56 IST 2008

Shivam,

I am not asking you to ask for forgiveness. I am just asking you to clarify
whether your details about 5% reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra
or any state is true.

If it is , pls prove.

If not , pls share why do you spread such lies.

As a journalist you should not be doing that , unless you work for someone
who has a a motive.

Pawan DUrani

On 10/22/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>
> Pawan sahab, I prostrate before thee. Forgive me! forgive me! forgive me!
> Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea, I assure you I am
> not trying to coerce you into converting by asking for forgiveness.
>
> Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Vande Matram! Vande
> Matram! Vande Matram! Ek dhakka aur do! (Marching straight to an RSS camp.)
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Shivam,
>>
>> You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular
>> direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which
>> generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates
>> hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is
>> Kashmiri Pandits.You are also  well known for your habit of loving to hate
>> Kashmiri Pandits.
>>
>> Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and
>> you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists.
>>
>> I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations in
>> any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra.
>>
>> If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being
>> misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential as
>> a journalist.
>>
>> The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am based
>> in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab India
>> and have few admirers in this EXPRESS.
>>
>> Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ?
>>
>> You misleader
>>
>> Pawan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a
>>> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia.
>>> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5%
>>> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country
>>> , so
>>> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>>> disinformation
>>> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being
>>> followed
>>> > more closely.
>>> >
>>> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links
>>> > ascertained.
>>> >
>>> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Pawan
>>> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches,
>>> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder
>>> >> when they will join the mainstream?
>>> >>
>>> >> best
>>> >> shivam
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>>> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>> >> > By M.V. Kamath
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Organiser
>>> >> >
>>> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary
>>> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to
>>> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing
>>> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the
>>> >> > Indian mainstream.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of
>>> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim
>>> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western
>>> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim
>>> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate
>>> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad
>>> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more
>>> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it
>>> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval
>>> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under-
>>> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But
>>> >> > then whose fault is it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being
>>> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past
>>> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims
>>> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last
>>> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats
>>> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were
>>> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited
>>> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart
>>> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win
>>> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if
>>> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got
>>> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha
>>> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the
>>> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won
>>> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok
>>> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have
>>> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats
>>> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though
>>> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they
>>> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of
>>> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to
>>> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but
>>> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The
>>> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined
>>> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got
>>> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four
>>> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and
>>> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of
>>> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting
>>> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when
>>> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be
>>> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied
>>> >> > religions.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating
>>> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad
>>> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They
>>> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no
>>> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to
>>> >> > win their favour.
>>> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims
>>> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a
>>> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure
>>> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream
>>> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party
>>> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win.
>>> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but
>>> >> > only seven could succeed.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens
>>> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people
>>> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah
>>> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed
>>> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves
>>> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the
>>> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the
>>> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that
>>> >> > you want to stay separate.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the
>>> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere
>>> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not
>>> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not
>>> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or
>>> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they
>>> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An
>>> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian
>>> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims
>>> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because
>>> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga.
>>> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his
>>> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic
>>> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to
>>> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic
>>> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue
>>> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not
>>> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims
>>> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and
>>> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to
>>> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a
>>> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims,
>>> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be
>>> >> > shunned like the very devil.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to
>>> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh
>>> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission.
>>> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may
>>> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote
>>> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister?
>>> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh?
>>> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?
>>> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=
>>> >> >
>>> >> > 150&page=12 ---
>>> >> >
>>> .....................................................................
>>> >> > ....................................
>>> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm
>>> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past
>>> >> > Mayank Patel
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong
>>> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and
>>> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past
>>> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action
>>> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and
>>> >> > reconciliation.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial,
>>> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous
>>> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who
>>> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have
>>> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian
>>> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic
>>> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable
>>> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda
>>> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming
>>> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election.
>>> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring
>>> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting
>>> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be
>>> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes
>>> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course
>>> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could
>>> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary,
>>> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far
>>> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal
>>> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian
>>> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish
>>> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain
>>> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite
>>> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165
>>> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s
>>> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not
>>> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and
>>> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On
>>> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not
>>> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial
>>> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence
>>> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who
>>> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not
>>> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged
>>> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims
>>> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion.
>>> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes.
>>> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement.
>>> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often
>>> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be
>>> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian
>>> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve
>>> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor
>>> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of
>>> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies
>>> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over,
>>> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance
>>> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef
>>> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse.
>>> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing
>>> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing
>>> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Related story:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @
>>> >> >
>>> http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-%
>>> >> > e2%80%93-history/
>>> >> > _________________________________________
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>
>