[Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Fri Oct 24 09:51:55 IST 2008 

Dear Shivam,

I am still awaiting you to either

1. Confirm your statements

2. Accept that you have been biased against kashmiri pandits and you are a
compulsive liar


3. You are a source of disinformation campaign.

You owe that because you are supposed to be a journalist .

Pawan


On 10/22/08, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Shivam,
>
> I am not asking you to ask for forgiveness. I am just asking you to clarify
> whether your details about 5% reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra
> or any state is true.
>
> If it is , pls prove.
>
> If not , pls share why do you spread such lies.
>
> As a journalist you should not be doing that , unless you work for someone
> who has a a motive.
>
> Pawan DUrani
>
>
>  On 10/22/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>
>> Pawan sahab, I prostrate before thee. Forgive me! forgive me! forgive me!
>> Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea, I assure you I am
>> not trying to coerce you into converting by asking for forgiveness.
>>
>> Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Vande Matram! Vande
>> Matram! Vande Matram! Ek dhakka aur do! (Marching straight to an RSS camp.)
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Shivam,
>>>
>>> You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular
>>> direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which
>>> generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates
>>> hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is
>>> Kashmiri Pandits.You are also  well known for your habit of loving to hate
>>> Kashmiri Pandits.
>>>
>>> Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and
>>> you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists.
>>>
>>> I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations
>>> in any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra.
>>>
>>> If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being
>>> misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential as
>>> a journalist.
>>>
>>> The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am
>>> based in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab
>>> India and have few admirers in this EXPRESS.
>>>
>>> Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ?
>>>
>>> You misleader
>>>
>>> Pawan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a
>>>> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia.
>>>> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5%
>>>> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country
>>>> , so
>>>> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>>>> disinformation
>>>> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being
>>>> followed
>>>> > more closely.
>>>> >
>>>> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their
>>>> links
>>>> > ascertained.
>>>> >
>>>> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Pawan
>>>> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches,
>>>> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder
>>>> >> when they will join the mainstream?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> best
>>>> >> shivam
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>>>> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>>>> >> > By M.V. Kamath
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Organiser
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary
>>>> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to
>>>> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing
>>>> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from
>>>> the
>>>> >> > Indian mainstream.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of
>>>> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim
>>>> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western
>>>> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim
>>>> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only
>>>> alienate
>>>> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is
>>>> bad
>>>> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more
>>>> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it
>>>> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval
>>>> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under-
>>>> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But
>>>> >> > then whose fault is it.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being
>>>> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past
>>>> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims
>>>> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last
>>>> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats
>>>> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were
>>>> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited
>>>> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart
>>>> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win
>>>> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections,
>>>> if
>>>> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got
>>>> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha
>>>> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the
>>>> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won
>>>> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok
>>>> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have
>>>> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats
>>>> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though
>>>> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they
>>>> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number
>>>> of
>>>> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth
>>>> to
>>>> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but
>>>> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The
>>>> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined
>>>> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got
>>>> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM,
>>>> four
>>>> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and
>>>> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of
>>>> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting
>>>> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when
>>>> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be
>>>> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and
>>>> allied
>>>> >> > religions.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating
>>>> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad
>>>> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They
>>>> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no
>>>> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth
>>>> to
>>>> >> > win their favour.
>>>> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims
>>>> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a
>>>> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure
>>>> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream
>>>> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party
>>>> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win.
>>>> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but
>>>> >> > only seven could succeed.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens
>>>> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people
>>>> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah
>>>> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed
>>>> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom
>>>> themselves
>>>> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the
>>>> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the
>>>> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that
>>>> >> > you want to stay separate.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the
>>>> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to
>>>> adhere
>>>> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not
>>>> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not
>>>> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or
>>>> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they
>>>> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes.
>>>> An
>>>> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian
>>>> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary
>>>> Muslims
>>>> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because
>>>> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga.
>>>> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim!
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his
>>>> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic
>>>> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to
>>>> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic
>>>> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue
>>>> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not
>>>> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims
>>>> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and
>>>> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to
>>>> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a
>>>> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims,
>>>> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be
>>>> >> > shunned like the very devil.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs
>>>> to
>>>> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community.
>>>> Sareh
>>>> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission.
>>>> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may
>>>> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote
>>>> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister?
>>>> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh?
>>>> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?
>>>> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 150&page=12 ---
>>>> >> >
>>>> .....................................................................
>>>> >> > ....................................
>>>> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm
>>>> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past
>>>> >> > Mayank Patel
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong
>>>> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and
>>>> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past
>>>> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action
>>>> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and
>>>> >> > reconciliation.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial,
>>>> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous
>>>> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who
>>>> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have
>>>> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of
>>>> Indian
>>>> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic
>>>> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable
>>>> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda
>>>> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming
>>>> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that
>>>> election.
>>>> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring
>>>> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting
>>>> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be
>>>> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes
>>>> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course
>>>> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could
>>>> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary,
>>>> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far
>>>> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal
>>>> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian
>>>> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish
>>>> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also
>>>> certain
>>>> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite
>>>> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165
>>>> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s
>>>> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not
>>>> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and
>>>> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On
>>>> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not
>>>> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial
>>>> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence
>>>> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who
>>>> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not
>>>> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this
>>>> alleged
>>>> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims
>>>> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion.
>>>> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes.
>>>> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement.
>>>> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often
>>>> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be
>>>> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian
>>>> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve
>>>> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor
>>>> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of
>>>> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies
>>>> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over,
>>>> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance
>>>> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef
>>>> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse.
>>>> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing
>>>> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing
>>>> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Related story:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @
>>>> >> >
>>>> http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-%
>>>> >> > e2%80%93-history/
>>>> >> > _________________________________________
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>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>>>> >> _________________________________________
>>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations
>>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
>>>> >> subscribe in the subject header.
>>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>>
>>
>

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