[Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?

we wi dhatr1i at yahoo.com
Thu Oct 23 10:07:00 IST 2008 

Shivam,
 
You might be naughty or whatever for,
>>>Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea,
 
I pity for your state of mind,thinking and lack of knowledge for the above.
If we take the line from the Sanskrit sloka which stands for any time
 
    KARYESHU DASI, KARANESHU MANTRI
    BHOJYESHU MATAA, SAYENESHU RAMBHA
    RUPECHA LAKSHMI,KSHAMAYA DHARITRI
    SHATKARMAYUKTA, KULADHARMAPATNI
 
 
1)"Kshamaya Dharitri"    which means forgiveness is the phenomenon and characteristic of the EARTH which is stated before CHRIST.  
2) Women in this context INDIAN/HINDU(if i think narrowly like others as per current trends) are compared to EARTH for forgiveness.  It is the culture injected into the souls by families/parents since ages. This kind of attitude keeps one in safe and creates peace in lives. After reading this and you are watching the present society, I hope no body will raise questions like 
 
      a) What happen if woman are not like that, 
      b) Why should woman be like that.
 
    To condemn you or any other half knowledge/baked persons about history/language,
one need not belong to RSS.  INDIA contain so many knowledgeable persons in several political parties and systems.
 
 P:S:  ISRO Madhavan Nair offered prayers/pooja to maata/devi, before the launch of 
          Chandrayan-1 yesterday for the success.

Regards,
Dhatri.

--- On Wed, 10/22/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:

From: Shivam Vij शिवम् <mail at shivamvij.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?
To: "Pawan Durani" <pawan.durani at gmail.com>
Cc: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 5:51 PM

Pawan sahab, I prostrate before thee. Forgive me! forgive me! forgive me!
Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea, I assure you I am
not trying to coerce you into converting by asking for forgiveness.

Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Vande Matram! Vande
Matram! Vande Matram! Ek dhakka aur do! (Marching straight to an RSS camp.)

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Pawan Durani
<pawan.durani at gmail.com>wrote:

> Shivam,
>
> You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular
> direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which
> generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates
> hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is
> Kashmiri Pandits.You are also  well known for your habit of loving to hate
> Kashmiri Pandits.
>
> Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and
> you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists.
>
> I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations in
> any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra.
>
> If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being
> misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential
as
> a journalist.
>
> The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am based
> in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab
India
> and have few admirers in this EXPRESS.
>
> Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ?
>
> You misleader
>
> Pawan
>
>
>
>
> On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
<mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a
>> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia.
>> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5%
>> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits?
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani
<pawan.durani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign
country ,
>> so
>> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a
>> disinformation
>> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being
>> followed
>> > more closely.
>> >
>> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their
links
>> > ascertained.
>> >
>> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Pawan
>> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
<mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise
churches,
>> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I
wonder
>> >> when they will join the mainstream?
>> >>
>> >> best
>> >> shivam
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream?
>> >> > By M.V. Kamath
>> >> >
>> >> > Organiser
>> >> >
>> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other
reactionary
>> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and
threatening to
>> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is
routine to sing
>> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to
withdraw from the
>> >> > Indian mainstream.
>> >> >
>> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one
Minister of
>> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate
Muslim
>> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh
in western
>> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the
Muslim
>> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will
only alienate
>> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further.
>> >> >
>> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical
grounds is bad
>> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting
more
>> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But
what it
>> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in
the medieval
>> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims
are under-
>> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok
Sabha. But
>> >> > then whose fault is it.
>> >> >
>> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on
being
>> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular
support. Past
>> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace
prevails Muslims
>> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the
last
>> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the
number of seats
>> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their
population were
>> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their
own, forfeited
>> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority
lives apart
>> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it
possibly win
>> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter?
>> >> >
>> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha
elections, if
>> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims
should have got
>> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok
Sabha
>> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the
same—but the
>> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the
Muslims won
>> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the
third Lok
>> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim
should have
>> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest
number of seats
>> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when,
though
>> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53
seats they
>> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad.
>> >> >
>> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement,
the number of
>> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From
the tenth to
>> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got
66 seats but
>> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats.
The
>> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims
joined
>> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP.
Muslims got
>> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in
the CPM, four
>> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local
parties.
>> >> >
>> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian
ideas and
>> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people
suspect of
>> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get
votes by putting
>> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to
madrasas when
>> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary
schools to be
>> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the
majority and allied
>> >> > religions.
>> >> >
>> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is
that hating
>> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of
Laloo Prasad
>> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help
them. They
>> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority
community, no
>> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may
put forth to
>> >> > win their favour.
>> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition
of Muslims
>> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As
Chaturanan Mishra, a
>> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a
prominent figure
>> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in
Mainstream
>> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest
secular party
>> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12
could win.
>> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in
1998 but
>> >> > only seven could succeed.
>> >> >
>> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket.
Muslim citizens
>> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers,
serving people
>> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as
in the Shah
>> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an
ISI-financed
>> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they
doom themselves
>> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not
blame the
>> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to
Muslims, the
>> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in
yourselves that
>> >> > you want to stay separate.
>> >> >
>> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out
the
>> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women.
>> >> >
>> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they
continue to adhere
>> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are
not
>> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they
are not
>> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like
Meghavati or
>> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor
are they
>> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their
currency notes. An
>> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our
own Indian
>> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of
reactionary Muslims
>> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande
Mataram because
>> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference
to Durga.
>> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim!
>> >> >
>> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who
had his
>> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous
Islamic
>> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and
stand to
>> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely
lesser Islamic
>> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book.
>> >> >
>> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking
their cue
>> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It
is not
>> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise
it. Muslims
>> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a
democracy and
>> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to
want to
>> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live
under a
>> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For
Muslims,
>> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It
should be
>> >> > shunned like the very devil.
>> >> >
>> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once
wrote belongs to
>> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or
community. Sareh
>> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding
mission.
>> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who
knows—the time may
>> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus
themselves may vote
>> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our
Prime Minister?
>> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh?
>> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?
>> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=
>> >> >
>> >> > 150&page=12 ---
>> >> >
......................................................................
>> >> > ....................................
>> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm
>> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past
>> >> > Mayank Patel
>> >> >
>> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past
wrong
>> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to
Germany and
>> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged
past
>> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by
their action
>> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of
truth and
>> >> > reconciliation.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of
denial,
>> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more
than generous
>> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist,
Islamist etc. who
>> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies
who have
>> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On
behalf of Indian
>> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and
deflection tactic
>> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like
partition.
>> >> >
>> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond
reasonable
>> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a
single agenda
>> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because
overwhelming
>> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in
that election.
>> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments
favoring
>> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of
shooting
>> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with
shooters.
>> >> >
>> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian
Muslims should not be
>> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and
cleverly presumes
>> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A
course
>> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s
mistake could
>> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the
contrary,
>> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed
fallen far
>> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve
communal
>> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure.
>> >> >
>> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165
million strong Indian
>> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2
0would not wish
>> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is
also certain
>> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent
belligerence is quite
>> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian
Muslims are 165
>> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over
India"s
>> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it
does not
>> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion
and
>> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and
reconciliation. On
>> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic
strife if not
>> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers.
>> >> >
>> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of
denial
>> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is
silence
>> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and
allies who
>> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian
Muslims are not
>> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts
this alleged
>> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian
Muslims
>> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and
distortion.
>> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis.
>> >> >
>> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past
mistakes.
>> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement.
>> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement
can often
>> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can
never be
>> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path.
Finally, Indian
>> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation
in massi ve
>> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who
favor
>> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts
innocence of
>> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes
provide allies
>> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims.
>> >> >
>> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes.
More-over,
>> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This
over reliance
>> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own
ideological beef
>> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making
matters worse.
>> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and
changing
>> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of
wrongdoing
>> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation.
>> >> >
>> >> > Related story:
>> >> >
>> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @
>> >> >
http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-%
>> >> > e2%80%93-history/
>> >> > _________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
>> >> _________________________________________
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>>
>
>


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