[Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream?

[Pawan Durani]

Dear Shuddha,

What may be reported in Media is not a GoVt Notification. The Govt
notification is Kashmiri Migrants . There are many non KP migrants who got
benefitted. I would try to source the details.

Meanwhile if you have a Govt notification which reads 5 % reservation for
Kashmiri Pandits , Please share with rest of us.

I know I am not a master of mixing words nor is this a full time job for me
for which I get paid for.

It is intresting to note that you love to refer a christian missionary site
for your allegations and at the same time you love to hate Organiser and
other portals.

Pls have some parity. You may try to write DON-III . Farah Khan may you
better.

Regards

Trust , One day Indian court will announce the capital punishment to Yasin.

On 10/24/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:

> Pawan,
>
>
> Unfortunately for you, the reports i cited do not only use the term
> 'Kashmiri Migrants', they also use, in significant instances, the very
> specific term 'Kashmiri Pandits'. And this is not my invention. I only
> 'quote' them.
>
>
> For instance, the report in the Hindu by Naunidhi Kaur, specifically says
> -
>
>
>  "While in power, the Shiv Sena had instituted quotas for Kashmiri Pandits
> in colleges in Maharashtra." Notice, the term used is 'pandits' not
> 'migrants'.
>
>
> Similarly, if you were to follow the link to the report titled "Quota for
> Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges" in the Hindu for December 24,
> 2004, you will see that the subject line (title) of the report uses the term
> 'Kashmiri Pandits', not 'Kashmiri Migrants'
>
>
> Morover, were you to go into the report you would read that this 'quota'
> was announced by the then chief minister of Karnataka State, Dharam Singh,
> at a Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits" organised by the All India
> Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the Kashmiri Hindu Samithi, Karnataka. (both of
> which are Kashmiri Pandit organizations)
>
>
> If you read what he said while announcing these quotas, there can be no
> denying the fact that the quotas are meant primarily to support Kashmiri
> Pandit migrants. He says (as you would read if you had read the full
> report)
>
>
> "It is unfortunate that the original inhabitants of Jammu and Kashmir, the
> Kashmiri Pandits, are tragic victims of systematic oppression and are
> undergoing forced exile for the last 15 years. It is the responsibility of
> the Union Government and society, on humanitarian grounds, to help them to
> return to their homes,"
>
>
> Clearly, he is addressing a Kashmiri Pandit constituency by setting up an
> institutional framework to meet their demands.
>
>
> I do not believe that the question of forced internal displacement or
> migration from Kashmir needs to be viewed in a secterian light.
>
>
>  And I am sure that the demands of 'non-Kashmiri Pandit' migrants from
> Kashmir, (whether Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist, Chistian) are as justified
> as those of exclusively Hindu,  'Kashmiri Pandit' migrants from Kashmir, if
> they have migrated due to terror and intimidation.
>
>
> There are instances, for example, of Kashmiri Christians (converts both
> from Pandit as well as Muslim communities) who have been denied all help so
> far by the government of India, or by the government of the state of Jammu
> and Kashmir and are studiously ignored by the Kashmiri Pandit organizations
> that claim to speak on behalf of migrants from Kashmir.
>
>
> See - <http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1312/47/> for further
> details
>
>
> Now, it might be interesting to know how many 'non Kashmiri Pandit'
> migrants have been able to avail of these quotas in different states. Do you
> have any figures (not anecdotes, figures) that you would be able to share
> with the group, or will you continue to make what are simply insinuations.
> If you have anything more substantial and verifiable than your personal
> opinion, it might be useful. If not, I suggest you consider again who needs
> to apologise to whom on the list.
>
>
> I find your selective appropriation of pain sad and unfortunate. It truly
> diminishes your capacity to give an account of suffering, and turns every
> expression by you and your colleagues of that suffering into an opportunist
> exercise. In the end, it is people like you that make it more, not less,
>  difficult for Kashmiri Pandit communities (whether displaced, or still
> living in Kashmir) to lead a dignified life.
>
>
> I hope that this dispute will end here, with the clarification of facts if
> need be, because I for one do not want to see another endless round of
> exchanges on things Kashmiri, to the exclusion of everything else on this
> list
>
>
> Shuddha
>
>
>
>
>  On 24-Oct-08, at 2:07 PM, Pawan Durani wrote:
>
>  Dear Shuddha ,
>
>
> Thank you for your mail . I do nothing but apprecaite the way you mix words
>
> which suit your ideology.
>
>
> In this case I must say you do a great dis service to SARAI by
> manufacturing
>
> stories and mixing words.
>
>
> Please check up the prood you have provided yourself. In this case it must
>
> be noted of how you have changed the subject line while refering to
>
> "Kashmiri Pandits" while as when anyone would go theorugh your "proof" of
>
> news links , the stories do mention that reservations are there , but it
>
> also does mention that the reservation is for Kashmiri Migrants.
>
>
> I know you have a specific knowledge about Kashmir and Kashmiris . What i
>
> did not know that you were unaware that there were many caste and groups of
>
> people who are registered as Migrants from Kashmir. And you must be aware
> of
>
> how many Kashmiri Muslims take advantage of this whether they are genuinely
>
> victimes of terrorism or not.
>
>
> Also if at all in some specific course some reservation is metioned , that
>
> does not make a rule to generalise it.
>
>
> Mr Shuddha , it needs a brave and a person of character to admit the wrong.
>
> Unfortunately both you and Shivam do not fit in any of these two.
>
>
> Now Shuddha , ypou owe an apology to come clean of what made you come to
>
> support Shivam or is it that you both are supporters of separatist
>
> Kashmiris  and hence common friends.
>
>
> Some Mausere Bhai .......
>
>
>
>
> Pawan Durani
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/24/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net> wrote:
>
>
>  Pawan,
>
>
>
> In your post to Shivam you said -
>
>
>
>    I am just asking you to clarify whether your details about 5%
>
> reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra
>
>
> or any state is true.
>
>
>
> Here are four references, with appropriate citations (below) on the subject
>
> of 'quotas' for admission of Kashmiri Pandit migrant candidates to
>
> educational institutions in different states (Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh
>
> and Karnataka).
>
>
>
> I see nothing wrong with them, just as I see nothing wrong with affirmative
>
> action initiatives in educational institutions for dalit, tribal and OBC
>
> students. Whosoever suffers social disabilities should be entitled to
>
> affirmative action in a caring society. I have nothing against Kashmiri
>
> Pandit migrants being entitled to affirmative action, for the same reason
>
> that i have nothing against Bangladeshi Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist migrants
>
> to Delhi or any other part of India being entitled (as I hope they will be
>
> one day) to affirmative action.
>
>
>
> Whosoever suffers due to migration, or social or political reasons, or
>
> whosoever's migration occurs because of suffering should be entitled to
> care
>
> and hospitality by the host society. I believe this to be perfectly
>
> reasonable and humane.
>
>
>
> Coming to details, which you demand, you will notice that there is a
>
> specific mention of upto 5% (reservation) for Kashmiri Pandit students in
>
> non technical courses in Karnataka.
>
>
>
> I do hope that now you will consider offering the list, and Shivam Vij an
>
> apology for suggesting that he has been biased against Kashmiri Pandits
>
> while bringing up the subject of 'reservations' and acted as a 'compulsive
>
> liar'. Clearly, as the sources below indicate, he has not acted as a
>
> compulsive liar.  In this case, it turns out that you have a bias against
>
> looking for available sources that go against your self imposed image of
>
> Kashmiri Pandits being the eternal and only victims in our midst. Their
>
> sufferings do not diminish simply because they are not the only ones to
>
> suffer. Please avoid making charges of this nature in the future. You do
>
> your community and its cause a great deal of disservice by these outbursts.
>
> Please check that you are not making a fool of yourself all over again
>
> before the next time you hit send after writing a post addressed to this
>
> listl. You do this way too often and I really feel bad for you. I would
>
> heartily recommend a degree of restraint to you.
>
>
>
> I also hope that Aditya Raj Kaul, whose political agenda in Delhi
>
> University Student politics has featured a heavy accent against the issue
> of
>
> 'reservations' will consider carefully the fact that his argument against
>
> reservations can also extend to an argument against reservations for
>
> Kashmiri Pandit students.
>
>
>
> Perhaps, for the sake of consistency, he could either think of making a
>
> case against reservations for Kashmiri pandit migrant students within
>
> appropriate forums, such as 'Roots in Kashmir', or on the other hand, turn
>
> his considerable activist experience in a generally 'pro-reservation'
>
> direction, or at least refrain from commenting on the issue of reservations
>
> altogether. Either way, it is never too late to change one's mind.
>
>
>
> Of course, he need not, because continued hypocrisy (which works well in
>
> tandem with a loqacious self promotional agenda) is a perfectly valid
>
> political option, especially given the currently prevailing political
>
> culture in our glorious republic.
>
>
>
> Shuddha
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
> 1. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Maharashtra Educational
>
> Institutions
>
>
>
> a) Extract from Report on Internal Displacement.org
>
>
> <
>
>
> http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument
>
>
>
>
> "Maharashtra Government has made reservation of seats for children of
>
> citizens displaced from J&K due to terrorist violence and children of
>
> officers belonging to I.A.S., I.P.S. and other officers and staff belonging
>
> to military and paramilitary forces transferred to J&K to deal with
>
> terrorist activities in the State, in technical institutions in the filed
>
> [sic] of Engineering, Pharmacy, Architecture, etc., both at the degree and
>
> diploma levels. For this purpose, every diploma/degree level institution
>
> (whether Government aided or not) is permitted to create one extra seat for
>
> each course over and above the normal capacity of the institution and these
>
> seats cannot be allotted to students of any other category. However, no
>
> relaxation in eligibility conditions as prescribed by the concerned
>
> authority has been made. The domicile restriction has been removed for
>
> Kashmiri migrant students. Admission in general educational courses is also
>
> being provided subject to normal eligibility conditions being fulfilled."
>
>
>
> b) Extract on reservations for Kashmiri Pandits in Maharashtra from story
>
> in Frontline <
>
> http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122005301800.htm>
>
>
>
> The Distress of the Displaced
>
>
> by Naunidhi Kaur
>
>
> in New Delhi
>
>
> Frontline, Volume 19 - Issue 23, November 09 - 22 2002
>
>
>
> "Now, the Kashmiri Pandit organisations have unabashedly hitched on to the
>
> Shiv Sena bandwagon. They remain grateful to Sena chief Bal Thackeray for
>
> helping the community out. While in power, the Shiv Sena had instituted
>
> quotas for Kashmiri Pandits in colleges in Maharashtra. Pandit
> organisations
>
> in Delhi are particularly sore about the Bharatiya Janata Party not doing
>
> anything to revive the registration process for migrant identity cards."
>
>
>
> 2.  Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Madhya Pradesh Educational
>
> Institutions
>
>
>
>  Extract from Report on Madhya Pradesh on Internal Displacement.org
>
>
> <
>
>
> http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument
>
>
>
>
> "One seat has been reserved for Kashmiri migrants in each technical
>
> institution viz. Engineering, Polytechnics and [Industrial Training
>
> Institutes]. For general education there is no restriction in the State."
>
>
>
> 3.  Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Karnataka Educational
>
> Institutions
>
>
>
> Extract from Report in the Hindu, December 20, 2004
>
>
> <http://www.hindu.com/2004/12/20/stories/2004122003900400.htm>
>
>
>
> Quota for Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges
>
>
> The Hindu, Monday, December 20, 2004
>
>
>
>  "BANGALORE, DEC. 19. One seat each in all technical and professional
>
> colleges in the State will be reserved for Kashmiri migrant students, the
>
> Chief Minister, N. Dharam Singh, announced here on Sunday.
>
>
>
> In non-technical programmes such as B.A./B.Com./B.Sc./BCA/Computer Science,
>
> up to five per cent of seats over and above the approved intake in colleges
>
> will be given to wards of Kashmiri migrants, Mr. Singh said.
>
>
>
> He was speaking at the Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits"
>
> organised by the All India Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the Kashmiri Hindu
>
> Samithi, Karnataka.
>
>
>
> The seats in colleges offered to Kashmiris that remain vacant will be
>
> filled by other candidates, he added. Mr. Singh said that the Government
>
> would give Rs. 25 lakhs towards the construction of Kashmir Bhavan in the
>
> city."
>
>
>
> 4. Reflections on Reservations for Kashmiri Pandits by a Kashmiri Pandit
>
>
>
> Search Kashmir Blog
>
>
> <http://searchkashmir.blogspot.com/2008/07/quota-and-kashmiri-pandits.html
>
>
>
>
> Quota and Kashmiri Pandits
>
>
>
> "Why can't we see things for what they are? We got quota in Maharashtra
>
> because it had a Hindu government and they tried to cash in on the Hindu
>
> vote by making it a 'Hindi cause'. Its all politics, nothing more, we were
>
> exploited, made a pawn in the great game and nothing more.
>
>
>
> They had no love lost for Kashmiri Pandits. Now we have Gujarat government
>
> giving quota. I hate Mr. Modi; he is the other side of the same communal
>
> coin. We were the poster boys of consequences of Islamic terror. In return,
>
> we got 'freebies' and we made the most of our situations. We don't have to
>
> be apologetic about it. A lot of good did come out of these freebies.
>
> However, at the same time we don't have to be thankful for it. They had
>
> their political goals and we had a life to look forward to. I did my B.E.
>
> due to quota in Maharashtra but I don't care much about this fact because I
>
> know that the system abused me and in return, I abused it back. Quota in
> our
>
> case is nothing but abuse of system. Quality and ability are superseded by
>
> need and requirement. How long do we need it? Do we stop when we can afford
>
> 3-4 lakhs to get a seat? Do you think we would be able to stop? Won't we
>
> think of that 3-4 lakhs as a saving and instead use it for some other so
>
> called 'worthy cause' like Weddings etc. How do you think KPs in Jammu
> could
>
> afford to build houses in Jammu? Should we be apologetic for that?
>
>
>
> Well, I am not. I did what I had to do and I did it my way. If anything, I
>
> am concerned about the price we are paying for having a quota system in the
>
> first place. The quality always pays the price for quantity. I know I would
>
> have performed better had I known that there is no quota to get me through
>
> the day. But I am hopelessly optimistic that each would find his own way.
>
>
>
> Quota isn't a simple issue (nothing related to Kashmir is simple), I still
>
> remember a Young K.P guy who came to teach us chemistry in school during
>
> 12th. He was a bright fellow but I could see that he was dejected with
> life.
>
> He gave his 12th living in a camp. He himself told me once that he could
> not
>
> be a B.E. because during his time they did not have a quota system and the
>
> no. of seats were too few. So he did B.sc and took up teaching. Therefore,
>
> quota or rather the absence of quota had an immitigable effect on his life.
>
>
>
> Bottom-line: Make the most of what life has to offer you. Quota does not
>
> necessary mean that you are bad but don't let it ruin your real education.
>
> We can spend all our life getting educated. Don't make yourself cannon
>
> fodder for greater political causes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>  Shuddhabrata Sengupta
>
> The Sarai Programme at CSDS
>
> Raqs Media Collective
>
> shuddha at sarai.net
>
> www.sarai.net
>
> www.raqsmediacollective.net
>
>
>