[Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism]

Sun Oct 26 11:31:36 IST 2008

forget to write one thing! although your name is tapas you better start practicing things.  You have lot of myths and mischiefs about everything.

Veda:  Rugveda,Yajurveda,Samveda, Adharveda.  Longggggg.... ago scholarly people write commentaries to part of these by searching the meaning by PRACTICE. Hence Upanishads and puranas came into existence.  GITA  is just a saramsh of Vedas and Upanishads. (that means if you read geeta that is equivalent enough to read 4 Vedas and 18 Upanishads and puranas. Simply say the entire content is in GEETA)   You need not byheart or practice but just I request you to read GEETA 18 CHAPTERS fully  with meaning (Devanagari/Sanskrit only) Daily 30 minutes. For doing this you need not join RSS,SANGH PARIVAR, any political party or leave any including your day to day activities.

To name a child,to join a school,to join a job, to sign a agreement, to sign a contract, to start an office one need a good dates(tithi). Without breaking a coconut/without having a kalas nothing happens.  Without lighting a deepa no civil,political ceremony will took place. As per Yuga dharma every thing is going as it was happened in KRITA,TRETA(RAM/RAMAYAN),DWAPARA(KRISHNA/GITA/MAHABHARAT) period.  Come on Where does your argument stand. 

P:S: INDO-US nuke deal inked to law on the day of VIJAYDASHAMI.

--- On Sun, 10/26/08, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism]
To: "Tapas Ray" <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:55 AM

Hmm Tapas,

      Your arguments shows that you are a confused person and hence they
are useless like you.  Why and how

      Being a name Tapas(by ur parents,friends,relatives and many more
like this.....) without doing a tapas (tan/man) you are are passing commentary
about the things which tapasics found by PRACTICE long long long AGO.

By your mail children can understand that you have severe understanding
problems with HINDU religion and INDIA.  That is why I wrote what is what.. 
How is it happening in INDIA.  You pl let every body know your argument if it
not a commentary on India and religion.

Regards,
Dhatri.

--- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism]
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 6:29 AM

hello! if you meant what i think you meant, then you seem not to have
followed my arguments.

we wi wrote:
> Tapas,
>  
>  >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or
even 
> mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its
practice.
>  
> Good words n great recognition.  Practice makes one perfect.  You should 
> not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion.  If you are 
> celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some 
> god what is that?  If you are chanting names like 
> tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the 
> poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India?  what about the 
> sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you 
> offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that?  If some body die 
> then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what 
> about them and what for they?  From birth to death  and after death 
> everything is linked.  This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND 
> HOLY SCRIPTURES.  EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA.
>  
> As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas.  You 
> are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a 
> way of performing dharma.  ,  You are not sufficient enough to comment 
> about the Hindu dharma and ram.
> The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did 
> tat way.  
> If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to 
> understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma.
>  
> coming back on CASTE.
>  
> Krishna in geeta says
>     1) *chatur varna maya* srishtam guna karma vibhagasha!
>  
>      2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata
>         abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham!
>  
> not only that if we take other instance  from lalitha sahasranama,
>  
> 3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini"
>  
> like this i can quote many
>  
> Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas 
> only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I 
> dont wish to define.  Its all with time
> Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and 
> have knowledge.
>  
> Regards,
> Dhatri.
>  
> 
> 
> --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray /<tapasrayx at gmail.com>/* wrote:
> 
>     From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
>     Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism
>     To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>     Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM
> 
>     It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah
is..

>     My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation,
because 
>     the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's 
>     occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing,

>     because the BJP's use of the “caste card” in elections is well

>     documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not
have 
>     been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon 
>     themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the
Hindutva 
>     agenda.
> 
>     That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed
to 
>     all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not
above 
>     casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their 
>     rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the 
>     saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate 
>     people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins –
Aditya's 
>     own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it 
>     difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits 
>     stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their 
>     plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics.
> 
>     Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles
wide of 
>     the mark.
> 
>      > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures
sanction 
>      > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not
permit
>      > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of
mankind, 
>      > are the foundation of Hinduism.
> 
>     Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism
and 
>     what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only 
>     scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble 
>     deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the
heterogeneity 
>     of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World
Hindu 
>     Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a 
>     solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this: 
>     anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity
of 
>     one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi
(basil) 
>     plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria.
> 
>     What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is

>     not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the
belief 
>     of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by 
>     reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on
account 
>     of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion

>     is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very
major 
>     way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus, 
>     the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from
school 
>     textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go
to 
>     school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If

>     anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based 
>     killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees
in 
>     many areas.
> 
>     When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one 
>     must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas

>     in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George

>     Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white
people, 
>     not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that
the 
>     caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are
very 
>     harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places.
There 
>     is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram 
>     cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been 
>     practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of 
>     Brahmins.
> 
>     Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves
only 
>     one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the
Sangh 
>     Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate
casteism or 
>     other harmful practices.
> 
>     Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the 
>     assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads.
> 
> 
>     Tapas
> 
>     Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:
>     > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah …
>     > 
>     > SECTION – I
>     > 
>     > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism
>     > 
>     > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu
scriptures
>     > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism
does
>     > not permit any caste system, whatsoever.
>     > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of
>     > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity
>     > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of
entire
>     > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste
>     > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig
>     > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu
vishve
>     > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize
oneness,
>     > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and
>     > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given
here.
>     > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet
>     > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is
small. All
>     > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates
that all
>     > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra
number 3-
>     > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate
and
>     > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf.
>     > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6
of
>     > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as
firmly
>     > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel.
>     > 
>     > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many
Shlokas
>     > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka
>     > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all
>     > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka
number IX
>     (29)
>     > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all
creatures,
>     > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the
Lord
>     > resides in him.
>     > 
>     > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to
>     'select' (one's
>     > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth-
>     > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending
upon
>     > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are
four
>     > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by
his
>     > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita
>     > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and
>     > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present
in
>     > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of
>     > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma,
every
>     > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if
their
>     > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family
will
>     > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the
>     > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas
treat
>     > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction
any
>     > caste system or birth based caste system.
>     > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate
authority
>     > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being
human
>     > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a
subordinate
>     > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti,
"Vedo
>     > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire
Dharma)
>     > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that
whenever
>     > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will
prevail
>     > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly)
>     > 
>     > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was
not
>     > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a
>     > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of
Satvic
>     > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were
>     > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who
>     > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a
Brahmin
>     > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the
Mahabharat
>     > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system
>     > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably
well
>     > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in
those
>     > days as compared to other civilizations.
>     > 
>     > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present
>     > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the
British
>     > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of
the
>     > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst
such
>     > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta
>     > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste
because
>     > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered
the
>     > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and
governance
>     > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the
Portuguese
>     > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste"
by the
>     British and
>     > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial
rule
>     > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being
only
>     > sometime in 1800 AD."
>     > 
>     > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of
>     > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are
not
>     > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of
low
>     > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ
from
>     > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages,
mixed
>     > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are
divided
>     > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their
>     >  professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live
near
>     > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101)
>     > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in
>     > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste.
>     > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in
India
>     > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian
>     > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that
homosexuality
>     > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are
>     > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe?
>     > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was
first used
>     > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao
>     > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political
group
>     called
>     > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the
>     > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians
and
>     > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and
>     > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and
>     > fraudulent methods.
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