[Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism]
inder salim
indersalim at gmail.com
Sun Oct 26 11:52:05 IST 2008
Dear Dharti and all
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On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:31 AM, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:
> forget to write one thing! although your name is tapas you better start practicing things. You have lot of myths and mischiefs about everything.
>
> Veda: Rugveda,Yajurveda,Samveda, Adharveda. Longggggg.... ago scholarly people write commentaries to part of these by searching the meaning by PRACTICE. Hence Upanishads and puranas came into existence. GITA is just a saramsh of Vedas and Upanishads. (that means if you read geeta that is equivalent enough to read 4 Vedas and 18 Upanishads and puranas. Simply say the entire content is in GEETA) You need not byheart or practice but just I request you to read GEETA 18 CHAPTERS fully with meaning (Devanagari/Sanskrit only) Daily 30 minutes. For doing this you need not join RSS,SANGH PARIVAR, any political party or leave any including your day to day activities.
>
> To name a child,to join a school,to join a job, to sign a agreement, to sign a contract, to start an office one need a good dates(tithi). Without breaking a coconut/without having a kalas nothing happens. Without lighting a deepa no civil,political ceremony will took place. As per Yuga dharma every thing is going as it was happened in KRITA,TRETA(RAM/RAMAYAN),DWAPARA(KRISHNA/GITA/MAHABHARAT) period. Come on Where does your argument stand.
>
>
> P:S: INDO-US nuke deal inked to law on the day of VIJAYDASHAMI.
>
>
> --- On Sun, 10/26/08, we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: we wi <dhatr1i at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism]
> To: "Tapas Ray" <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:55 AM
>
> Hmm Tapas,
>
> Your arguments shows that you are a confused person and hence they
> are useless like you. Why and how
>
> Being a name Tapas(by ur parents,friends,relatives and many more
> like this.....) without doing a tapas (tan/man) you are are passing commentary
> about the things which tapasics found by PRACTICE long long long AGO.
>
> By your mail children can understand that you have severe understanding
> problems with HINDU religion and INDIA. That is why I wrote what is what..
> How is it happening in INDIA. You pl let every body know your argument if it
> not a commentary on India and religion.
>
> Regards,
> Dhatri.
>
> --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism]
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 6:29 AM
>
> hello! if you meant what i think you meant, then you seem not to have
> followed my arguments.
>
>
> we wi wrote:
>> Tapas,
>>
>> >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or
> even
>> mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its
> practice.
>>
>> Good words n great recognition. Practice makes one perfect. You should
>> not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion. If you are
>> celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some
>> god what is that? If you are chanting names like
>> tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the
>> poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India? what about the
>> sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you
>> offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that? If some body die
>> then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what
>> about them and what for they? From birth to death and after death
>> everything is linked. This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND
>> HOLY SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA.
>>
>> As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas. You
>> are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a
>> way of performing dharma. , You are not sufficient enough to comment
>> about the Hindu dharma and ram.
>> The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did
>> tat way.
>> If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to
>> understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma.
>>
>> coming back on CASTE.
>>
>> Krishna in geeta says
>> 1) *chatur varna maya* srishtam guna karma vibhagasha!
>>
>> 2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata
>> abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham!
>>
>> not only that if we take other instance from lalitha sahasranama,
>>
>> 3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini"
>>
>> like this i can quote many
>>
>> Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas
>> only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I
>> dont wish to define. Its all with time
>> Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and
>> have knowledge.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dhatri.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray /<tapasrayx at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>>
>> From: Tapas Ray <tapasrayx at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism
>> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
>> Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM
>>
>> It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah
> is..
>
>> My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation,
> because
>> the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's
>> occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing,
>
>> because the BJP's use of the "caste card" in elections is well
>
>> documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not
> have
>> been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon
>> themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the
> Hindutva
>> agenda.
>>
>> That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed
> to
>> all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not
> above
>> casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their
>> rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the
>> saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate
>> people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins –
> Aditya's
>> own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it
>> difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits
>> stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their
>> plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics.
>>
>> Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles
> wide of
>> the mark.
>>
>> > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures
> sanction
>> > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not
> permit
>> > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of
> mankind,
>> > are the foundation of Hinduism.
>>
>> Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism
> and
>> what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only
>> scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble
>> deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the
> heterogeneity
>> of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World
> Hindu
>> Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a
>> solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this:
>> anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity
> of
>> one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi
> (basil)
>> plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria.
>>
>> What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is
>
>> not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the
> belief
>> of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by
>> reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on
> account
>> of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion
>
>> is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very
> major
>> way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus,
>> the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from
> school
>> textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go
> to
>> school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If
>
>> anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based
>> killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees
> in
>> many areas.
>>
>> When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one
>> must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas
>
>> in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George
>
>> Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white
> people,
>> not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that
> the
>> caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are
> very
>> harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places.
> There
>> is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram
>> cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been
>> practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of
>> Brahmins.
>>
>> Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves
> only
>> one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the
> Sangh
>> Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate
> casteism or
>> other harmful practices.
>>
>> Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the
>> assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads.
>>
>>
>> Tapas
>>
>> Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:
>> > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah …
>> >
>> > SECTION – I
>> >
>> > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism
>> >
>> > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu
> scriptures
>> > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism
> does
>> > not permit any caste system, whatsoever.
>> > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of
>> > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity
>> > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of
> entire
>> > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste
>> > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig
>> > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu
> vishve
>> > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize
> oneness,
>> > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and
>> > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given
> here.
>> > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet
>> > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is
> small. All
>> > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates
> that all
>> > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra
> number 3-
>> > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate
> and
>> > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf.
>> > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6
> of
>> > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as
> firmly
>> > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel.
>> >
>> > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many
> Shlokas
>> > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka
>> > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all
>> > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka
> number IX
>> (29)
>> > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all
> creatures,
>> > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the
> Lord
>> > resides in him.
>> >
>> > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to
>> 'select' (one's
>> > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth-
>> > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending
> upon
>> > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are
> four
>> > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by
> his
>> > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita
>> > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and
>> > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present
> in
>> > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of
>> > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma,
> every
>> > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if
> their
>> > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family
> will
>> > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the
>> > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas
> treat
>> > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction
> any
>> > caste system or birth based caste system.
>> > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate
> authority
>> > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being
> human
>> > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a
> subordinate
>> > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti,
> "Vedo
>> > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire
> Dharma)
>> > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that
> whenever
>> > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will
> prevail
>> > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly)
>> >
>> > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was
> not
>> > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a
>> > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of
> Satvic
>> > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were
>> > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who
>> > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a
> Brahmin
>> > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the
> Mahabharat
>> > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system
>> > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably
> well
>> > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in
> those
>> > days as compared to other civilizations.
>> >
>> > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present
>> > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the
> British
>> > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of
> the
>> > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst
> such
>> > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta
>> > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste
> because
>> > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered
> the
>> > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and
> governance
>> > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the
> Portuguese
>> > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste"
> by the
>> British and
>> > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial
> rule
>> > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being
> only
>> > sometime in 1800 AD."
>> >
>> > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of
>> > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are
> not
>> > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of
> low
>> > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ
> from
>> > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages,
> mixed
>> > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are
> divided
>> > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their
>> > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live
> near
>> > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101)
>> > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in
>> > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste.
>> > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in
> India
>> > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian
>> > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that
> homosexuality
>> > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are
>> > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe?
>> > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was
> first used
>> > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao
>> > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political
> group
>> called
>> > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the
>> > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians
> and
>> > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and
>> > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and
>> > fraudulent methods.
>> > _________________________________________
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