[Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord

Pawan Durani pawan.durani at gmail.com
Sun Sep 7 00:10:47 IST 2008 

Dear Inder Ji,
Without sounding rude, i must tell you that there is something very wrong
with yuour identity which you are unable to identify with.

What does make you to call Geelani a "sahbi: time to time. He is a criminal
who according to me deserves a very harsh punishment.

You also have never sent a rejoinder to a so called journalist like Murtaza,
who till date has not revealed why he is called a "paid" agent of a
Brussel organization ?

Regarding Shuddhaa , He is one of those kinds who would teach me the basics
of Biscoe School ? LoL...and I was a 3rd generation in that school.

Shuddha is just  few years too old to debate with my 4 year old son about
Kashmir. There is no doubt that like you Shuddha is like a "Kosi" river
....just gone haywire ...only to destroy a peaceful mind.

Pawan



On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Rashneek
>
> some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me,
>
> " you deserve to be ignored "
>
>  and now it is you who said it to Shuddha.
>
> I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person
> may simply prese the botton ' delete'
>
> it is too easy.
>  because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5.
>
> now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in
> Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond:
>
> We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is
> nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh
> ji, our PM.
>
> But if the religion of  all Kashmiris is ' AZADI  then how to convert
> them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case.
>
> I think it is very simple. Army and police and other  reasoning has
> not helped us.
>  I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990
> that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons...
>
> Yes,  Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can
> be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the
> representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory.
>
> Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right
> wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of
> Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort
> to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to
> write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi
> is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate.
>
> We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything
> is hazy, but  we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to
> retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too
> need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a
> VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity.
>
> then that  will amount to 2+2=4
>
> with love
> is
>
>
>
>
> Just press the delete button, anything that you consider
> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Dear Aarti,
> >
> > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. He
> > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain
> silent.
> >
> >
> > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous.
> >
> > Warm Regards,
> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with
> >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from
> you
> >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening
> >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your
> >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts are
> >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha.
> >>
> >> regards
> >> Aarti
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher <rashneek at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of
> either
> >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries
> >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his
> posts
> >>> on Kashmir.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Rashneek
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <
> kauladityaraj at gmail.com
> >>> >wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different.
> >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir.
> >>> >
> >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the
> Kashmiri
> >>> > pan
> >>> > > Islamists & their cause.  He ran a campaign series in support of
> the
> >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen
> to
> >>> > call
> >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as
> >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi
> -bara
> >>> -e
> >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New
> >>> > Delhi/May
> >>> > > 8, 2007)  in  his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the
> >>> al-Qeada
> >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a  bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief
> allegedly
> >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for
> >>> talks
> >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day
> >>> Hafeez
> >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence
> of
> >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to
> carry
> >>> on
> >>> > the
> >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India,
> DEL/May8'
> >>> > 07/
> >>> > > page no.13).
> >>> > > LA
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From:
> kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> >>> >
> >>> > To:
> >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re:
> >>> [Reader-list]
> >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> >  >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>>
> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1
> >>> >
> >>> >  >  >
> >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
> >>> > wrote:>
> >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>> Subject: Re:
> >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord>
> To:
> >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" <shuddha at sarai.net>> Cc: "Sarai list" <
> >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07
> PM>
> >>> >
> >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir
> >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is
> >>> the
> >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >
> >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for
> pointing
> >>> this
> >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata
> >>> > Sengupta
> >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger
> >>> for
> >>> > land
> >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India.
> >>> > Captains
> >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more
> >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata
> >>> mentions
> >>> > the
> >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god,
> >>> inaugurating a
> >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears
> as
> >>> it
> >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha
> >>> continues.>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated
> about>
> >>> >
> >>> > the
> >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> >
> is
> >>> > intent
> >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur
> >>> > (where
> >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> >
> gigantic
> >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do
> >>> with
> >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of
> either
> >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> >
> 'gated'
> >>> and
> >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin
> around
> >>> the
> >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra
> >>> > Sangharsh
> >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to
> >>> grant
> >>> > a
> >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On
> closer
> >>> > reading
> >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this
> >>> > 'accord'>
> >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the
> >>> substance
> >>> > of>
> >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I
> am
> >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> >
> legal
> >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An
> >>> Immoral
> >>> > and
> >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir
> >>> newspaper
> >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> >
> >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> >
> >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the
> terms
> >>> of
> >>> > the
> >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on
> >>> this
> >>> > list
> >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread -
> 'Gun
> >>> > Salutes
> >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul -
> >>> the
> >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition
> of
> >>> > land -
> >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent
> of
> >>> > one> >
> >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of
> the> >
> >>> > Armed
> >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> >
> >>> this
> >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of
> >>> land)
> >>> > is
> >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my>
> >
> >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal
> and>
> >>> >
> >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,>
> >
> >>> > worsens
> >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the
> >>> reasons
> >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only
> be
> >>> > viewed
> >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long
> and
> >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic
> >>> blundering
> >>> > on
> >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that
> >>> > urgently
> >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> >
> >>> > >
> ======================================================================
> >>> >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord>
> >
> >>> > Greater
> >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2:
> The
> >>> > accord
> >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath
> >>> Yatra
> >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government's
> >>> order
> >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS
> >>> concessions
> >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an
> abject
> >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The
> >>> > differences
> >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> >
> 1.
> >>> The
> >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> >
> in
> >>> > which
> >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely
> >>> ignores
> >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was
> represented.
> >>> A
> >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top
> leaders
> >>> were
> >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the
> word
> >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and
> >>> threaten
> >>> > to
> >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in
> >>> the
> >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government
> "shall
> >>> set
> >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the
> land
> >>> in>
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> >
> >>> > cloaked
> >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> >
> annual
> >>> > yatra
> >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the
> Pahalgam
> >>> > route.
> >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army
> >>> and
> >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if
> the
> >>> > limit
> >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This
> >>> > violates
> >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move
> freely
> >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in
> >>> May
> >>> > 2008
> >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the
> >>> yatra
> >>> > for
> >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The
> duration
> >>> of
> >>> > use
> >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first
> says
> >>> > that
> >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including
> the
> >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para
> has
> >>> > these
> >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to
> the
> >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the
> >>> following".
> >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of
> the
> >>> > sheds
> >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period
> "from
> >>> > time
> >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be all
> >>> the
> >>> > year
> >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall
> >>> > return"
> >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes
> S.K.
> >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also
> >>> dropped
> >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para
> 6.
> >>> An
> >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and
> Para
> >>> 7
> >>> > on
> >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious
> >>> provision
> >>> > in
> >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely
> >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology"
> etc.
> >>> > Breach
> >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1
> July.
> >>> > The
> >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the
> >>> > accord
> >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest
> (Conservation)
> >>> Act
> >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of
> the
> >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory
> >>> Committee"> >
> >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any
> forest> >
> >>> > land
> >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> >
> The
> >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> >
> >>> > amendment
> >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added and
> >>> made
> >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different
> from
> >>> > "J&K
> >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The
> law
> >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This
> Council
> >>> can
> >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case
> the
> >>> > Forest
> >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this
> new
> >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was
> given
> >>> > before
> >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on
> 23
> >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important
> >>> observations
> >>> > on
> >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to
> >>> > consider
> >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation
> of
> >>> > opinion
> >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf
> >>> Naik
> >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The
> >>> > accord
> >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy.
> Any
> >>> > order
> >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the
> >>> state
> >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces
> including
> >>> > promise
> >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation
> to
> >>> > the
> >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun
> >>> asking
> >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is
> >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state
> can
> >>> > thus
> >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this,
> what
> >>> > hopes
> >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring
> the
> >>> > raped
> >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> >
> >>> > >
> ======================================================================
> >>> >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> >
> >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open
> >>> > discussion
> >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To
> >>> > subscribe:
> >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe
> in
> >>> the
> >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe:
> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List
> archive:
> >>> <
> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata
> >>> Sengupta>
> >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective>
> shuddha at sarai.net
> >>> >
> >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > >
> >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open
> >>> > discussion
> >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To
> subscribe:
> >>> > send
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> archive: <
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> >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open
> >>> > discussion
> >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To
> subscribe:
> >>> > send
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> archive: <
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> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________
> >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals.
> >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings
> >>> > > _________________________________________
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> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Rashneek Kher
> >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy
> >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
> >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
> >>>  _________________________________________
> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> >>> Critiques & Collaborations
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> >>> subscribe in the subject header.
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> > _________________________________________
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> > Critiques & Collaborations
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>
>
> --
>
> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
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