[Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord

[inder salim]

Dear brother Pawan ji

about sahib, when i say i sahib to somebody, i respect myself.

i  still say sahib to my cousin brother who sold my land in kashmir
without my consent, the case is in High court before the  Hon'ble
Judge sahib.

about Shuddha , our brother, dear Kshmendra sahib thinks he is simply
brilliant. i agree.

About Brussels. I was in London when i met  Secretrary of  J&K
Cultralal Academy, Zafar Minhas sahib who is a harsh critic of Geelani
sahib just before he went to meet the Track II in Brussels to meet
other sahibs.  Murtaza sahib shall answer the question if there is any
addressed to him.

about my identity. yes,  a line by Ghalib, kush hoon ki samajna hai
muhal mujay ( i am happy that i am difficult to negotiate ) even
ambigous. so what

love
is


On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Pawan Durani <pawan.durani at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Inder Ji,
> Without sounding rude, i must tell you that there is something very wrong
> with yuour identity which you are unable to identify with.
> What does make you to call Geelani a "sahbi: time to time. He is a criminal
> who according to me deserves a very harsh punishment.
> You also have never sent a rejoinder to a so called journalist like Murtaza,
> who till date has not revealed why he is called a "paid" agent of a
> Brussel organization ?
> Regarding Shuddhaa , He is one of those kinds who would teach me the basics
> of Biscoe School ? LoL...and I was a 3rd generation in that school.
> Shuddha is just  few years too old to debate with my 4 year old son about
> Kashmir. There is no doubt that like you Shuddha is like a "Kosi" river
> ....just gone haywire ...only to destroy a peaceful mind.
> Pawan
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Rashneek
>>
>> some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me,
>>
>> " you deserve to be ignored "
>>
>>  and now it is you who said it to Shuddha.
>>
>> I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person
>> may simply prese the botton ' delete'
>>
>> it is too easy.
>>  because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5.
>>
>> now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in
>> Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond:
>>
>> We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is
>> nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh
>> ji, our PM.
>>
>> But if the religion of  all Kashmiris is ' AZADI  then how to convert
>> them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case.
>>
>> I think it is very simple. Army and police and other  reasoning has
>> not helped us.
>>  I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990
>> that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons...
>>
>> Yes,  Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can
>> be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the
>> representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory.
>>
>> Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right
>> wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of
>> Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort
>> to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to
>> write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi
>> is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate.
>>
>> We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything
>> is hazy, but  we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to
>> retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too
>> need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a
>> VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity.
>>
>> then that  will amount to 2+2=4
>>
>> with love
>> is
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just press the delete button, anything that you consider
>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Dear Aarti,
>> >
>> > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. He
>> > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain
>> > silent.
>> >
>> >
>> > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous.
>> >
>> > Warm Regards,
>> > Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >
>> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with
>> >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from
>> >> you
>> >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening
>> >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your
>> >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts are
>> >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha.
>> >>
>> >> regards
>> >> Aarti
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher <rashneek at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of
>> >>> either
>> >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries
>> >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his
>> >>> posts
>> >>> on Kashmir.
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards
>> >>>
>> >>> Rashneek
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >>> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com
>> >>> >wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different.
>> >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the
>> >>> > > Kashmiri
>> >>> > pan
>> >>> > > Islamists & their cause.  He ran a campaign series in support of
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen
>> >>> > > to
>> >>> > call
>> >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as
>> >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi
>> >>> > > -bara
>> >>> -e
>> >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New
>> >>> > Delhi/May
>> >>> > > 8, 2007)  in  his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the
>> >>> al-Qeada
>> >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a  bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief
>> >>> > > allegedly
>> >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for
>> >>> talks
>> >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day
>> >>> Hafeez
>> >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence
>> >>> > > of
>> >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to
>> >>> > > carry
>> >>> on
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India,
>> >>> > > DEL/May8'
>> >>> > 07/
>> >>> > > page no.13).
>> >>> > > LA
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From:
>> >>> > > > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
>> >>> >
>> >>> > To:
>> >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re:
>> >>> [Reader-list]
>> >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> >  >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1
>> >>> >
>> >>> >  >  >
>> >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
>> >>> > wrote:>
>> >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>> Subject: Re:
>> >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord>
>> >>> > > To:
>> >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" <shuddha at sarai.net>> Cc: "Sarai list" <
>> >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07
>> >>> > > PM>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater
>> >>> > > Kashmir
>> >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here
>> >>> > > is
>> >>> the
>> >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >
>> >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for
>> >>> > > pointing
>> >>> this
>> >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata
>> >>> > Sengupta
>> >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of
>> >>> > > hunger
>> >>> for
>> >>> > land
>> >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India.
>> >>> > Captains
>> >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be
>> >>> > > more
>> >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata
>> >>> mentions
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god,
>> >>> inaugurating a
>> >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It
>> >>> > > appears as
>> >>> it
>> >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha
>> >>> continues.>
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated
>> >>> > > > about>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> >
>> >>> > > is
>> >>> > intent
>> >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> >
>> >>> > > Singur
>> >>> > (where
>> >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> >
>> >>> > > gigantic
>> >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do
>> >>> with
>> >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of
>> >>> > > either
>> >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> >
>> >>> > > 'gated'
>> >>> and
>> >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin
>> >>> > > around
>> >>> the
>> >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra
>> >>> > Sangharsh
>> >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to
>> >>> grant
>> >>> > a
>> >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On
>> >>> > > closer
>> >>> > reading
>> >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this
>> >>> > 'accord'>
>> >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the
>> >>> substance
>> >>> > of>
>> >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I
>> >>> > > > am
>> >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> >
>> >>> > > legal
>> >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An
>> >>> Immoral
>> >>> > and
>> >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir
>> >>> newspaper
>> >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> >
>> >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> >
>> >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the
>> >>> > > terms
>> >>> of
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on
>> >>> this
>> >>> > list
>> >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread -
>> >>> > > 'Gun
>> >>> > Salutes
>> >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul
>> >>> > > -
>> >>> the
>> >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition
>> >>> > > of
>> >>> > land -
>> >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent
>> >>> > > of
>> >>> > one> >
>> >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of
>> >>> > > the> >
>> >>> > Armed
>> >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> >
>> >>> this
>> >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of
>> >>> land)
>> >>> > is
>> >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in
>> >>> > > my> >
>> >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal
>> >>> > > and>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,>
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > worsens
>> >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the
>> >>> reasons
>> >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only
>> >>> > > be
>> >>> > viewed
>> >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long
>> >>> > > and
>> >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic
>> >>> blundering
>> >>> > on
>> >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that
>> >>> > urgently
>> >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > ======================================================================
>> >>> >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord>
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > Greater
>> >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2:
>> >>> > > The
>> >>> > accord
>> >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath
>> >>> Yatra
>> >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the
>> >>> > > government's
>> >>> order
>> >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS
>> >>> concessions
>> >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an
>> >>> > > abject
>> >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The
>> >>> > differences
>> >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> >
>> >>> > > 1.
>> >>> The
>> >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> >
>> >>> > > in
>> >>> > which
>> >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely
>> >>> ignores
>> >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was
>> >>> > > represented.
>> >>> A
>> >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top
>> >>> > > leaders
>> >>> were
>> >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the
>> >>> > > word
>> >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and
>> >>> threaten
>> >>> > to
>> >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded
>> >>> > > in
>> >>> the
>> >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government
>> >>> > > "shall
>> >>> set
>> >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the
>> >>> > > land
>> >>> in>
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> >
>> >>> > cloaked
>> >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> >
>> >>> > > annual
>> >>> > yatra
>> >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the
>> >>> > > Pahalgam
>> >>> > route.
>> >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the
>> >>> > > Army
>> >>> and
>> >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > limit
>> >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This
>> >>> > violates
>> >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move
>> >>> > > freely
>> >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even
>> >>> > > in
>> >>> May
>> >>> > 2008
>> >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the
>> >>> yatra
>> >>> > for
>> >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The
>> >>> > > duration
>> >>> of
>> >>> > use
>> >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first
>> >>> > > says
>> >>> > that
>> >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para
>> >>> > > has
>> >>> > these
>> >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the
>> >>> following".
>> >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > sheds
>> >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period
>> >>> > > "from
>> >>> > time
>> >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be
>> >>> > > all
>> >>> the
>> >>> > year
>> >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall
>> >>> > return"
>> >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes
>> >>> > > S.K.
>> >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also
>> >>> dropped
>> >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is
>> >>> > > Para 6.
>> >>> An
>> >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and
>> >>> > > Para
>> >>> 7
>> >>> > on
>> >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious
>> >>> provision
>> >>> > in
>> >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely
>> >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology"
>> >>> > > etc.
>> >>> > Breach
>> >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1
>> >>> > > July.
>> >>> > The
>> >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > accord
>> >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest
>> >>> > > (Conservation)
>> >>> Act
>> >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory
>> >>> Committee"> >
>> >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any
>> >>> > > forest> >
>> >>> > land
>> >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> >
>> >>> > > The
>> >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> >
>> >>> > amendment
>> >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added
>> >>> > > and
>> >>> made
>> >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different
>> >>> > > from
>> >>> > "J&K
>> >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The
>> >>> > > law
>> >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This
>> >>> > > Council
>> >>> can
>> >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > Forest
>> >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this
>> >>> > > new
>> >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was
>> >>> > > given
>> >>> > before
>> >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case
>> >>> > > on 23
>> >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important
>> >>> observations
>> >>> > on
>> >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure
>> >>> > > to
>> >>> > consider
>> >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation
>> >>> > > of
>> >>> > opinion
>> >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general
>> >>> > > Altaf
>> >>> Naik
>> >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> >
>> >>> > > The
>> >>> > accord
>> >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy.
>> >>> > > Any
>> >>> > order
>> >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> state
>> >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces
>> >>> > > including
>> >>> > promise
>> >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of
>> >>> > > compensation to
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun
>> >>> asking
>> >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It
>> >>> > > is
>> >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state
>> >>> > > can
>> >>> > thus
>> >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this,
>> >>> > > what
>> >>> > hopes
>> >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring
>> >>> > > the
>> >>> > raped
>> >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > ======================================================================
>> >>> >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> >
>> >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open
>> >>> > discussion
>> >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To
>> >>> > subscribe:
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>> >>> > > archive:
>> >>> <
>> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata
>> >>> Sengupta>
>> >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective>
>> >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > >
>> >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Rashneek Kher
>> >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy
>> >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
>> >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
>> >>>  _________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >>
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