[Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord

Aarti Sethi aarti.sethi at gmail.com
Sun Sep 7 00:52:31 IST 2008 

Pawan,

How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement about
someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? Then we are all "paid
agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website says quite
clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know something the rest
of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. Otherwise your
attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever.

Aarti

>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Rashneek
> >
> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me,
> >
> > " you deserve to be ignored "
> >
> >  and now it is you who said it to Shuddha.
> >
> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person
> > may simply prese the botton ' delete'
> >
> > it is too easy.
> >  because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5.
> >
> > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in
> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond:
> >
> > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is
> > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh
> > ji, our PM.
> >
> > But if the religion of  all Kashmiris is ' AZADI  then how to convert
> > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case.
> >
> > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other  reasoning has
> > not helped us.
> >  I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990
> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons...
> >
> > Yes,  Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can
> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the
> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory.
> >
> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right
> > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of
> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort
> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to
> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi
> > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate.
> >
> > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything
> > is hazy, but  we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to
> > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too
> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a
> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity.
> >
> > then that  will amount to 2+2=4
> >
> > with love
> > is
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider
> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Dear Aarti,
> > >
> > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum.
> He
> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain
> > silent.
> > >
> > >
> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous.
> > >
> > > Warm Regards,
> > > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with
> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from
> > you
> > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening
> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your
> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts
> are
> > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha.
> > >>
> > >> regards
> > >> Aarti
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher <rashneek at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of
> > either
> > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries
> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his
> > posts
> > >>> on Kashmir.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards
> > >>>
> > >>> Rashneek
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <
> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com
> > >>> >wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different.
> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the
> > Kashmiri
> > >>> > pan
> > >>> > > Islamists & their cause.  He ran a campaign series in support of
> > the
> > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has
> chosen
> > to
> > >>> > call
> > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as
> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi
> > -bara
> > >>> -e
> > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New
> > >>> > Delhi/May
> > >>> > > 8, 2007)  in  his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the
> > >>> al-Qeada
> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a  bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief
> > allegedly
> > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India
> for
> > >>> talks
> > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very
> day
> > >>> Hafeez
> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence
> > of
> > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to
> > carry
> > >>> on
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India,
> > DEL/May8'
> > >>> > 07/
> > >>> > > page no.13).
> > >>> > > LA
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From:
> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> > >>> >
> > >>> > To:
> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re:
> > >>> [Reader-list]
> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> >  >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> >
> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1
> > >>> >
> > >>> >  >  >
> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net
> >
> > >>> > wrote:>
> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>> Subject: Re:
> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath
> Accord>
> > To:
> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" <shuddha at sarai.net>> Cc: "Sarai list" <
> > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07
> > PM>
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater
> Kashmir
> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here
> is
> > >>> the
> > >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >
> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for
> > pointing
> > >>> this
> > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM,
> Shuddhabrata
> > >>> > Sengupta
> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of
> hunger
> > >>> for
> > >>> > land
> > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in
> India.
> > >>> > Captains
> > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be
> more
> > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata
> > >>> mentions
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god,
> > >>> inaugurating a
> > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It
> appears
> > as
> > >>> it
> > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha
> > >>> continues.>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated
> > about>
> > >>> >
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front>
> >
> > is
> > >>> > intent
> > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> >
> Singur
> > >>> > (where
> > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> >
> > gigantic
> > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to
> do
> > >>> with
> > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of
> > either
> > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> >
> > 'gated'
> > >>> and
> > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin
> > around
> > >>> the
> > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra
> > >>> > Sangharsh
> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears
> to
> > >>> grant
> > >>> > a
> > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On
> > closer
> > >>> > reading
> > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this
> > >>> > 'accord'>
> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the
> > >>> substance
> > >>> > of>
> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> >
> I
> > am
> > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> >
> > legal
> > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An
> > >>> Immoral
> > >>> > and
> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir
> > >>> newspaper
> > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> >
> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> >
> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the
> > terms
> > >>> of
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before
> on
> > >>> this
> > >>> > list
> > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread -
> > 'Gun
> > >>> > Salutes
> > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul
> -
> > >>> the
> > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary
> acquisition
> > of
> > >>> > land -
> > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the
> equivalent
> > of
> > >>> > one> >
> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of
> > the> >
> > >>> > Armed
> > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in>
> >
> > >>> this
> > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of
> > >>> land)
> > >>> > is
> > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in
> my>
> > >
> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal
> > and>
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my
> view,>
> > >
> > >>> > worsens
> > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the
> > >>> reasons
> > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only
> > be
> > >>> > viewed
> > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long
> > and
> > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic
> > >>> blundering
> > >>> > on
> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation
> that
> > >>> > urgently
> > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> >
> > >>> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > >>> >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal
> Accord>
> > >
> > >>> > Greater
> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2:
> > The
> > >>> > accord
> > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath
> > >>> Yatra
> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the
> government's
> > >>> order
> > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS
> > >>> concessions
> > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an
> > abject
> > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The
> > >>> > differences
> > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >>
> >
> > 1.
> > >>> The
> > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> >
> > in
> > >>> > which
> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely
> > >>> ignores
> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was
> > represented.
> > >>> A
> > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top
> > leaders
> > >>> were
> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the
> > word
> > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and
> > >>> threaten
> > >>> > to
> > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded
> in
> > >>> the
> > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government
> > "shall
> > >>> set
> > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the
> > land
> > >>> in>
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is>
> >
> > >>> > cloaked
> > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> >
> > annual
> > >>> > yatra
> > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the
> > Pahalgam
> > >>> > route.
> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the
> Army
> > >>> and
> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if
> > the
> > >>> > limit
> > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3.
> This
> > >>> > violates
> > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move
> > freely
> > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even
> in
> > >>> May
> > >>> > 2008
> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using
> the
> > >>> yatra
> > >>> > for
> > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The
> > duration
> > >>> of
> > >>> > use
> > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first
> > says
> > >>> > that
> > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra"
> including
> > the
> > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para
> > has
> > >>> > these
> > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to
> > the
> > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the
> > >>> following".
> > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of
> > the
> > >>> > sheds
> > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period
> > "from
> > >>> > time
> > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be
> all
> > >>> the
> > >>> > year
> > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land
> "shall
> > >>> > return"
> > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes
> > S.K.
> > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also
> > >>> dropped
> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is
> Para
> > 6.
> > >>> An
> > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and
> > Para
> > >>> 7
> > >>> > on
> > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious
> > >>> provision
> > >>> > in
> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely
> > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology"
> > etc.
> > >>> > Breach
> > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1
> > July.
> > >>> > The
> > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself
> the
> > >>> > accord
> > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest
> > (Conservation)
> > >>> Act
> > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of
> > the
> > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory
> > >>> Committee"> >
> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any
> > forest> >
> > >>> > land
> > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".>
> >
> > The
> > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> >
> > >>> > amendment
> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added
> and
> > >>> made
> > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different
> > from
> > >>> > "J&K
> > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The
> > law
> > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This
> > Council
> > >>> can
> > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case
> > the
> > >>> > Forest
> > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to
> this
> > new
> > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was
> > given
> > >>> > before
> > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case
> on
> > 23
> > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important
> > >>> observations
> > >>> > on
> > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure
> to
> > >>> > consider
> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation
> > of
> > >>> > opinion
> > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general
> Altaf
> > >>> Naik
> > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> >
> The
> > >>> > accord
> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> >
> legitimacy.
> > Any
> > >>> > order
> > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that
> the
> > >>> state
> > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces
> > including
> > >>> > promise
> > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of
> compensation
> > to
> > >>> > the
> > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already
> begun
> > >>> asking
> > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It
> is
> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state
> > can
> > >>> > thus
> > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this,
> > what
> > >>> > hopes
> > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring
> > the
> > >>> > raped
> > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> >
> > >>> > >
> > ======================================================================
> > >>> >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> >
> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open
> > >>> > discussion
> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To
> > >>> > subscribe:
> > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >
> subscribe
> > in
> > >>> the
> > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe:
> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List
> > archive:
> > >>> <
> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata
> > >>> Sengupta>
> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective>
> > shuddha at sarai.net
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > >
> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open
> > >>> > discussion
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> > >>> > discussion
> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To
> > subscribe:
> > >>> > send
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> > >>> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals.
> > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings
> > >>> > > _________________________________________
> > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith
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> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header.
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Rashneek Kher
> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy
> > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com
> > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com
> > >>>  _________________________________________
> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations
> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > >>> subscribe in the subject header.
> > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > _________________________________________
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