[Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions

Mon Sep 8 10:28:52 IST 2008

Dear Ishwar,

If I understood Aarti's mail correctly, I do not think she was questioning
the validity of the cause of hurt, she was infact acknowledging that there
are various reasons of getting hurt and then giving some ideas of what we
could do with it.

Now, I would like to ask you whether you justify the effects to the causes
that you are connecting it to? All these 'effects' are due to lack of wisdom
and nobody but the fanatical can justify them. There is indeed distinction
between cause and effect, but it is not rocket-science to understand what
must be decried.

Rohit

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Ishwar <ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dear Inder,
>
> Let me get this clear. I'm very strongly against ever-increasing cases of
> religious intolerance, and as an atheist, Hussain's or Nasreen's expressions
> do not offend me the least. My question was purely theoretical.
>
> I request you to note the differences between cause and effect - Hurt is
> the cause, and Babri Masjid demolition, Taslima Nasreen, Danish Cartoon,
> Hussain episodes are effects. What is it that you wish to decry? The cause?
> the effect? both?
>
> My initial reply to Aarti's mail was, from a theoretical standpoint, to her
> questioning the validity of the cause, the 'hurt', and I believe that, given
> the frameworks in consideration, particularly the differences, hurt is
> understandable, and the statement "Everybody gets hurt" doesn't quite apply
> because the religious frameworks clearly place divine rights over
> individual's rights. Is it your claim that all religious frameworks stop
> doing that?
>
> How does one react to such incidents, I have no clue. Protests, I'd guess.
> Attempts a dialogue to bridge the gaps, probably.
>
> The effects of this cause can be peaceful, a dialogue in an utopian world.
>  Effects, like such incidents, however are something that every person who
> believes in individual's liberties must fight against.  If you don't believe
> in this distinction between cause and effect, and understanding the reasons
> behind one, while rejecting the other, I withdraw my case.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Ishwar
>
>
> Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 3:20:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions
>
>  Dear Yousf,
>
> Let us keep it simple.
>
> I should have used the word ' unwittingly' instead 'boldly' and that
> might have saved you from writing " I am the last person on earth to
> condemn artists for having monopoly on liberalism ". I know you are
> not against artists, and I consider you too an artist in your own
> unique way.
>
> Now you are looking for an alternative, right, take a case like Babri
> Masjid. The Sang Parivar thought that their sentiments are 'hurt'
> because a king demolished a temple and constructed a mosque on the
> same spot. I am not speaking on behalf of Muslims, but on behalf of
> Liberals, ( as  it is convenient to use ) that the mosque should not
> have  been demolished.  But the monopoly on 'hurt' scored and we
> witnessed a monumental tragedy.  what was the alternative?
>
> There are hundreds of other such examples where this kind of 'hurt'
> scored and we are reduced to mute spectators.  A government, based on
> a secular constitution should not have given in to this so called
> 'hurt'. That is my premise. Recently there was an attack on a very
> small exhibition of prints by Hussain organized by Sahmat. These are
> not simple hooligans but are from a strong political base with an
> agenda, to create a panic. They were so daring that they even called
> the TV channels to document their action. How to denounce that, May be
> Mr. Ishwar has an answer, People should be told simply that ' freedom
> of expression' is as important to life as water, food and sleep.
> Recently, an Italian museum rejected the Pope's desire to remove a
> frog- Christ sculpture from their display. There was no hue and cry
> from Christians world.  We need to learn from those examples. What is
> so big about a cartoon. Cartoons are made to bring humour in our lives
> and not hate. We need to cultivate an accurate sense of 'hurt'.  It is
> time we feel hurt because of immense environmental degradation on our
> planet.  We should be ashamed of our acts against women.  We should
> feel 'hurt' on seeing people begging on the streets.
>
> Any answer Mr. Iswar,  why Taslima Nasreen was hounded out of Inidia.
> Both Hussain and Taslima are known for their inaccurate works, but
> have found a huge support from artists , poets writers and other such
> segments of our society.  are we insane that we support a Taslima and
> a Hussain, a Chandra Mohan from time to time. We are, indeed a small
> segment of our society, and if we all don't support this minority
> within the minority then what we have is complete absence of
> alternative.   Is that what you want for the sake of a ' majority'.
>
> Who is afraid of Artists, poets, and dancers?  Hussain sahib was once
> a Rajya Sahba member, and all he did there was drawings of politicians
> arguing in the parliament.  I wish he had drawn them masturbating
> during sessions.  He is less courageous,  we all know, but in any
> case, is he a threat to our society, or someone who announces monetary
> awards to behead the artist or a writer? Opposing 'freedom of
> expression' is not a 'view point'  but a bully.
>
> Of course, artists and poets love audiences, without audiences there
> is not art and culture, but how come we oppose a change of taste even.
> Haven't people clapped to something fresh, new and radical, even on
> the stage when politicians play it out like actors on the stage.
> People want change, but 'some of well read persons' want to keep us
> unchanged.   Even now we have very few women poets, let alone the past
> when there were little chances for them to come forward. Males of the
> family  and society were often hurt as and when their daughters would
> come out in the open. Is it a view point ?  We are all here for a
> change. Let us support the change.  Prophets and saints too have been
> poets in their own unique ways who have always uttered verse with
> freshness of mood and change. But we simply become worshippers of that
> change, and obstruct the possibility of  change 'unwittingly'
>
> Yes, millions go the Haridwar for a sacred dip. But, I guess the dip
> becomes a very small component of the journey to a pilgrimage . The
> spectacle of a concentrated human mass is what attracts the people.
> The urge to brush shoulders with others, new clothes, picnic and
> exchange of looks with strangers is what seduces the average Indian.
> that is true, because the pollution level in Ganga does not 'hurt'
> them in the first place, which proves they are not too serious about
> the holdy dip.
> Who is truly religious? The same applies to people who go to Haj.
>
> With love
> is
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Ishwar <ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Guess I wasn't clear enough in what I intended to convey, and lack of
> clarity always invites misinterpretation.
> >
> > Inder, what made you come to the conclusion that understanding hurt
> sentiments in religious and other frameworks is tantamount to declaring
> support for fundamentalism? For that matter, when did understanding anything
> equated to supporting it?
> >
> > As an artist, can I assume that your work would not be received with
> enthusiasm from every section of the population?  That being the case. I
> think it's vital to understand that the religious communities' hurt comes
> from something that's fundamental to their current framework, in the local
> context. Saying 'Dude, everybody gets hurt, so chill' is not quite the
> answer.
> >
> > After respecting the reasoning behind the hate, one might choose to work
> towards a conversation. I find the comment 'how to
> > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt'"'
> rather strange. We aren't here to denounce viewpoints are we? I'd thought
> certain actions are to be denounced, not word views. If that's not the case,
> how is liberalism any different from religion, the very majority we seek to
> denounce?
> >
> >
> > P.S: Pardon my ignorance of keywords to express ideas.
> >
> >  Ishwar
> >
> >
> > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics.
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 9:50:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions
> >
> > Dear Yousuf
> > this is too sweeping a statement by a well read person like you.
> >
> > this also gives us a clue - how often well read people quickly throw
> > reasoning to dust bins and join hands with those who boldy declare
> > 'fundamentalsim' as their guiding light on the path of spirituality.
> > if we condemn artists  for having monoply on 'liberalism' then how to
> > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt'
> > ?   Our sufi bhakti traditions  were much liberal in their ' ways of
> > living' than what you consider as offensive.
> >
> > this also teachs me that we are basically too small to speak anything
> > truely about these overwhelming issues through these short cut
> > discussions,
> >
> > Here, i think of paintings, poetry, music  dance (  al erotic, sacred
> > and profane ) and all the eccentric moods of our society, even if '
> > well read people' consider it just an entertainment for artists
> > themselves, and couple of few others in the world.
> >
> > We are in a serious trouble. or only I ( artist )  feel it ?
> >
> > love
> > is
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