[Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi

Wed Sep 17 09:26:21 IST 2008

I think definitions of terror and violence do need greater discussion and it
would be great to have common and deeper understandings.

Though I totally condemn violence in the forms of killings, bombings, etc ..
there is a lot of other violence which we see in the world which are not
direct, but could have lasting effects. Isn't industrialisation violence?
Isn't the dominant paradigm of development violence? Aren't dams and
road-widening projects and embankements on rivers violence? Isn't dumping of
plastic or wastage of water violence? What is the impact of these violences
or excesses? And finally is there any hierarchy of violence?

These questions make me mad... and I wonder if it will go to the extent of
making me numb one day.

R

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Dear Partha
>
> Not much difference in how you and I see it as far as this topic is
> concerned. You have only added worthwhile elements to my discussions with my
> own self.
>
> You have been quite clear in stating how you view things and also in
> stating what you are uncertain about. So, no apologies needed.
>
> When it comes to conviction of certainities, I am attitudinally an
> agnostic. I love and feed off intelligent vagueness. It provides the spark,
> the catalyst and the drive for the "search".  In that is the hope that one
> will understand a bit more, discover a bit more.
>
> Kshmendra
>
> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 6:25 PM
>
>
>
> Dear Kshmendra,
>
>
> The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is something I
> would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own interpretation.
>
>
> Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are concerned, but
> for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard'
> definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would translate
> the word in their own way.
>
>
> As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is wide open
> depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is what
> religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer.
>
>
> If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose behind
> the conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not very
> clear.
>
>
> Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal group -
> that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all people of
> the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical
> conclusion.
>
>
> Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the phrase
> 'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences.
>
>
> Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought that I'd
> never really looked at before.
>
>
> Rgds, Partha
> .................................
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Partha
>
> My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my
> discussions with my own self.
>
> I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a
> terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a terrorist
> one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a terrorist
> organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal group'.
>
> There is total agreement with your words:
>
>
> """""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or
> whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or
> place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed
> 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable."""""""
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Partha Dasgupta <parthaekka at gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi
> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com
>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Kshmendra,
>
>
> Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on
> the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill
> cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob.
>
>
> As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something
> I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste
> or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or
> caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group
> performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable.
>
>
> In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire
> group a 'terrorists'.
>
>
> To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the
> demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is
> happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to
> another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in
> the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss.
>
>
> Rgds, Partha
> .......................................
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Partha
>
> Do not mean to butt in.
>
> Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be
> designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus.
>
> Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity
> when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion
> or are solely based on the religious identity?
>
> There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so
> designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are
> solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators.
>
> Just wondering.
>
> Kshmendra
>
>
> --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta <partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com>
> wrote:
>
> From: Partha Dasgupta <partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi
> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM
>
>
>
>
> Dear Radhika Rajen,
>
> In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected
> representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true
> representative.
>
> Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson
> and the eloctorate.
>
> Please  stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is.
> If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so.
>
> In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the
> Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and
> all
> I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost.
>
> Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time
> back, we have seen Hindu militancy.
>
> Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble
> about shades of right or wrong.
>
> So, where do you stand:
>
> a)   Militancy & armed conflict is wrong
>
> OR
>
> b)   Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as
> a
> majority
>      and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid
> are justified.
>
> Rgds, Partha
>
> PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE
> (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist
> organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim
> or
> Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were
> not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss?
> .....................................................
>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
>
> > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the
> > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have
> good
> > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once
> > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by
> nomination
> >  and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like
> > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to
> > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been  of yester
> years,
> > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank
> getting
> > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting
> branded as
> > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to
> > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It
> is
> > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal
> > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to
> > defend the accused are helping the ter
> > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in
> > the trade of defending the terror.
> >
> > regards.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Priya Sen <senpriya at gmail.com>
> > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm
> > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi
> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> > > Dear All,
> > >
> > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had
> > > decided to walk
> > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a
> > > bicycle and
> > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday
> > > and I
> > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I
> > > plan to
> > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and
> > > so forth.
> > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking
> > > through it
> > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific
> > > memories and a
> > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from
> > > having been
> > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes
> > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes
> > > for no one
> > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board
> > > saying 'Old
> > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in
> the
> > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate
> > > who always make
> > > me wonder at what they think  when they play it back later. It
> > > took 15
> > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young
> > > men, and a
> > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to
> > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so
> > > integral to
> > > ones day in Delhi.
> > >
> > >
> > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one
> > > at Regal
> > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there
> > > are now. Of
> > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of
> > > our lives
> > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city.
> > > Of the
> > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to.
> > > Everyone will
> > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from
> > > moments like
> > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was
> > > about Delhi.
> > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again
> > > and again
> > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in
> these
> > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little
> > > harder.
> > >
> > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when
> > > I watched
> > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into
> > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was
> > > overwhelming. Not to
> > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and
> > > other things
> > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel
> > > whatever -
> > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was
> like
> > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the
> > > reporters were
> > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news
> > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information
> > > started coming
> > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what
> > > they do
> > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then
> > > you think
> > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think,
> > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we
> live.
> > >
> > >
> > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also
> > > it's Sunday.
> > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the
> > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears
> > > and saying
> > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless
> > > because lakhs
> > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati
> > > visarjan in
> > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she
> has
> > > her life.
> > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make
> > > decisions about
> > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about
> everything
> > > outside of
> > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about
> > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being
> > > able to imagine,
> > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be
> > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be
> > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief,
> > > in degrees, and
> > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and
> > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on.
> > >
> > >
> > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want
> > > to be with
> > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation
> > > of itself,
> > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend
> > > and I are
> > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something
> to.".
> > > Like the
> > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here
> > > when this
> > > happened and not somewhere else.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > Priya
> > >
> > > --
> > > Priya Sen
> > > Sarai-CSDS
> > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines
> > > Delhi - 110054
> > > priya at sarai.net
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
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> >
> > _________________________________________
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> > Critiques & Collaborations
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>
>
>
> --
> Partha Dasgupta
> +919811047132
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in
> the subject header.
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>
>
> _________________________________________
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> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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>
> --
> Partha Dasgupta
> +919811047132
>
>
>
>
> --
> Partha Dasgupta
> +919811047132
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
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> Critiques & Collaborations
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