[Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised

Sun Sep 21 16:00:56 IST 2008

Dear Aarti,
It is not so simple. Please go through the case story as also about  the 'desperate attempt' using the skills of the senior celebrity criminal lawyer to get that tag of 'technical grounds'  deleted. It was by no means an honorable acquittal. And as mentioned earlier I accept the court verdict as I respect the judiciary -the law of the land.
Listen, if only you could feel & imagine what  Kashmir Hindu pandits have gone through at the hands of the Kashmiri pan Islamists,you would possibly pause before being so emotional about the man who like many others of his ilk is  seen openly in the company of the Kashmiri Muslim terror commanders turned self acclaimed leaders  spewing venom against the Indian state at every available forum. You need to understand the pain of wailing Kashmiri Muslim mothers,widows & orphans whose credulous loved ones continue to fall prey to the indoctrination & propaganda campaign of those who have been allowed to acquire a kind of political legitimacy & are pursuing their own sinister agenda. If only someone like you would also go & tell the Kashmiri masses about  the consequences of  'azadi -bara -e -Islam'.
To adore a stone piece from uninhabitable antarctica & to love & be possessive about your own country & its people are in no way similar.
Regards
LA

> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:47:32 +0530> From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> To: kauladityaraj at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > I know. It is unfortunate isn't it? And youre right. I have run out of> arguments. Making an argument presumes rational discussion. When someone is> displaying nothing more than rank prejudice then no discussion or argument> is possible. I am amazed that we can read the sort of poison that issues on> a daily basis from radhika and continue to have him on this list.> > I would suggest you not give me pointers on etiquette and politness Aditya.> All I have said is shut up. Not a terribly offensive or cutting statement.> It is only asking the person concerned to desist from speaking. Certainly> nothing in the region of the things you have been censored for on this list> not so long ago. I am even more amazed that you can call yourself a secular> person (which you insist on doing) and condone at the same time talk which> is racist, misogynist hate speech. Before giving me platitudes it would do> well to think hard about the kind of talk you condone and the views you> hold. This is probably why no one takes you seriously on this list even> though we all are sympatehtic to the Kashmiri pandit cause. Unfortunately it> is done a great disservice by the likes of you. It is hard to have any> sympathy with someone who parades his victimhood at every possible> oppurtunity and yet is so vicious and hateful towards another community. It> is disgusting.> > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <kauladityaraj at gmail.com>wrote:> > > Its unfortunate whoever uses terms such as "Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be.> > Quiet." and still holds the right to be a member of this forum. If you run> > out of arguments; you don't resort to such cheap behaviour. Its better you> > take to learning; rather then proveing your best to be a so called> > scholarly> > jhollahwaalah.> >> > We are not here to read your "Pass-Time" debate. If you enjoy it; then> > kindly take it offline. Grow Up...!> >> > Love> > Aditya Raj Kaul> >> > On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Aarti,> > >> > > This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a> > > general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is> > > wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them?> > > What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep> > > the> > > official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of> > > view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of> > privilege> > > to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing> > > discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant> > > emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any> > nation> > > can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone.> > > Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or> > a> > > Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic> > > scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much so> > > that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer> > > exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war> > > if> > > not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of> > > wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think> > > 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The> > state> > > as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not> > > have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but> > > nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of> > > identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever> > > fractured> > > or precarious it may be.> > >> > > Regards> > >> > > Nazo> > >> > >> > >> > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>> > > wrote:> > >> > > > Dear Lalit,> > > >> > > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or> > > > said> > > > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left> > > > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this> > list.> > > > The> > > > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow> > > and> > > > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of> > > attachment> > > > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order.> > > >> > > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the> > > > connections in your response.> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we> > > all> > > > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical> > > > grounds'> > > > > only.> > > > >> > > >> > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes> > > are> > > > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or> > phrase.> > > So> > > > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is> > no> > > > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even> > > > though> > > > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER> > > grounds> > > > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on> > technical> > > > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there> > > is> > > > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am> > > > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really> > > > quite> > > > simple in this case.> > > >> > > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must> > > have> > > > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of> > things> > > > we> > > > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience.> > > >> > > > best> > > > Aarti> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > >> > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530> > > > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> > > > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > > > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Lalit,> > > > >> > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds> > > that> > > > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence> > > > linking> > > > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is> > innocent> > > is> > > > a> > > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang> > him> > > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you> > will> > > be> > > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty> > > central> > > > to> > > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you> > to> > > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It> > has> > > > not> > > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all.> > > > >> > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again -> > > terror,> > > > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state> > are> > > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each> > > > other> > > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which> > > and> > > > > who is whom?> > > > >> > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to> > > suspend> > > > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of> > national> > > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake> > encounters,> > > > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so> > > that> > > > we> > > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that> > haunt> > > > us.> > > > >> > > > > best> > > > > Aarti> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar <> > > > lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only.> > Even> > > > one> > > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him> > > > relieved> > > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India.> > > > >> > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot.> > Here,> > > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in> > > > Kashmir &> > > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land'> > &> > > > 'the> > > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in> > > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush> > > > India'.> > > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are> > > welcome> > > > to> > > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile> > > > citizens'> > > > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that> > > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses> > it.> > > > > Regards all> > > > > LA> > > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy'> > can> > > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in> > > > > Kashmir since 1989-90.> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > >> > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500> > > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net> > > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> > > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net> > > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > > > > >> > > > > > Aarti,> > > > > >> > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and> > rights> > > > too> > > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to> > > the> > > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights.> > in> > > > fact> > > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without> > > > duties> > > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as> > any> > > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in> > society,> > > it> > > > is> > > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to> > > > individuals> > > > > to be free.> > > > > >> > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be> > > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in> > which> > > > she> > > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then> > she> > > > has> > > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the> > > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in> > > > > >> > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as> > > activist> > > > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he> > > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor> > > plan> > > > of> > > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a> > > > civil> > > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may> > acquit> > > > him> > > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension,> > > > because> > > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go> > on> > > in> > > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the> > > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of> > muslims> > > > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel> > > sorry> > > > > for ntire community and look with disdain.> > > > > >> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----> > > > > > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>> > > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > > > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com>, sarai list <> > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Nazneen,> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post> > > > > > > again. I used> > > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you> > > > > > > love land> > > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you> > > > > > > have no> > > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is> > > > > > > both an> > > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir,> > > > > > > does this> > > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The> > > > > > > question is> > > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went> > > > > > > on a> > > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of> > > > > > > childhood is> > > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes> > and> > > > ice> > > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many> > > years.> > > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth> > > > > > > some million> > > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of> > > > > > > the common> > > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far> > > > > > > as I am> > > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way> > to> > > > > > > think of> > > > > > > land.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional> > > > > > > 'ownership' over> > > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special> > > > > > > entitlement to the> > > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land> > > > > > > and whose> > > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in> > > > > > > singur, in> > > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people> > > > > > > are asking> > > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own> > > > > > > land in the> > > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not?> > > > > > > Because the> > > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All> > > > > > > land is the> > > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask> > these> > > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out> > these> > > > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I> > > > > > > do not feel this> > > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where> > > > > > > violence is> > > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to> > collapse> > > > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the> > same> > > > > > > thing.> > > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with> > the> > > > > > > area per> > > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at> > > > > > > all. The only> > > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the> > > > > > > logic of the> > > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a> > > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory.> > > > > > > This is the first> > > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are> > > > > > > right, the> > > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask> > > > > > > ourselves whether> > > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth...> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and> > > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it> > > > > > > if you wish. But just> > > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the> > > > > > > whole world as> > > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home"> > and> > > > > > > i think> > > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are> > several> > > > > > > ways in> > > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be> > > > > > > logic of> > > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection> > > > > > > into the> > > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or> > > > > > > forms of life> > > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and> > boring> > > > > > > for me.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > regards> > > > > > > Aarti> > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <> > > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Aarti,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For> > > > > > > that matter,> > > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity> > > > > > > and a concept,> > > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for> > > > > > > land? As far as> > > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide> > which> > > > > > > fiction of> > > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and> > > > > > > whats wrong> > > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so> > > > > > > is I think> > > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor> > > > > > > virus and hope> > > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it?> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Regards> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Nazo> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi> > > > > > > <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>wrote:>> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable> > > > > > > element of> > > > > > > >> India's> > > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental> > > > > > > principles on> > > > > > > >> which> > > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national> > > > > > > will as a> > > > > > > >> > critical> > > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious> > > > > > > adversaries" have> > > > > > > >> > resorted> > > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national> > will.> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years> > > > > > > constitute a> > > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question> > > is> > > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow> > naive> > > > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever> > > > > > > that is, have to be> > > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so.> > Our> > > > > > > >> imaginations> > > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in> > > > > > > fact they do,> > > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We> > > > > > > are so> > > > > > > >> willing> > > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that> > > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march> > of> > > > > > > history does not> > > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if> > > > > > > 2,000 years> > > > > > > >> of> > > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian> > > > > > > nation'. Why is> > > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand.> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically> > > > > > > produced units> > > > > > > >> of> > > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value> > > > > > > or that they> > > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no> > > > > > > investment>> in> > > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There> > > > > > > is nothing> > > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking> > these> > > > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'.> > > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future> > > > > > > and its> > > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard> > > > > > > about how> > > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it> > > > > > > would help us> > > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think> > > > > > > creatively at this> > > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to> > > > > > > India.>> There> > > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself.> > > > > > > Various kinds> > > > > > > >> of> > > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be> > > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as> > > > > > > "seditious" is no way to> > > > > > > >> go> > > > > > > >> anywhere.> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> best> > > > > > > >> A> > > > > > > >> _________________________________________> > > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header.> > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe:> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________> > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-> > > > > > > list> > > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > _________________________________________> > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > > > To unsubscribe:> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines.> > Only> > > > on> > > > > MSN News Check it out! <http://news.in.msn.com/>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on> > mergers,> > > > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!<> > > > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp>> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
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