[Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised

Sun Sep 21 16:54:22 IST 2008

Dear Lalit,

Would you like to begin a discussion on the travesty that was SAR Geelani's
trial? We can certainly do so. Many on this list have followed that trial
very closely. I am not being emotional about him at all. At least not unduly
so. I think we should all feel emotional when someone who is patently
innocent is sentenced to death for a crime he did not commit.

I have never and do not support militancy of any kind. I do not support the
taking of innocent lives. Nor have I ever supported the violence that lead
to the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley. And in my last response
to you I again asserted my empathy for what you have experienced and
continue to experience. I do not have any sympathy for religious
nationalisms, just as I have a critique of all nationalisms.

However I do not support targetting people because of their religious or
political views. I do not think that someone's political support for
whatever form of azadi they may espouse in Kashmir automatically gives you
or anyone else the right to proclaim they are terrorists or supporters of
terrorism. And this is something you and others on this list do continously.
Further I do not and will not support military occupation in Kashmir. And I
do not see why strong support for the return of Kashmiri Pandits to the
valley and condemnation of the conditions in which they were forced to
leave, is mutually incompatible with an equally strong critique of the
everyday excesses of the Indian state. For you it seems these are
incompatible positions. I do not see why.

Finally, you seem to throw my mentioning a stone from antartica in my face
with contempt. Let me clarify what I mean and the context in which I said
that. I was trying to point to the absurdity of alleging a personal stake in
the fate of land simply on account of it being supposedly part of the same
nation as yourself. I am not sure through what fait accompli of history I am
entitled to feel a sense of ownership over the whole of the landmass of
India so that I can assert with ferocity that I will have a say in deciding
the destinies of people and pieces of land with which I have no connection
other than the fact that they happen to fall within the map of India. I find
the hysterical outbursts of sections of the mainstream opinion in this
country quite frightening, to tell the truth. It is this ruthless logic of
entitlement which enables us to demand that peasents in Singur give up their
land for industry so "India" may benefit, that tribals in Niyamgiri be
ousted for the benefit of "India" and Vedanta corporation, that Posco be
given land in Orissa, and that villagers in Himachal Pradesh must relinquish
land so Ford can build a ski resort. Therefore I prefer to think of my
attachments in a slightly less violent fashion. I too feel attached but my
attachment is not a territorial attachment.

Likewise, certainly we must love people. But our affections for people are
arrayed across several spectrums at the same time. I might feel different
intensities of affection for different sets of people at different times and
places. Sometimes it could be because of personal bonds of love, sometimes
because we share different affiliations - of work, of interests, of
experiences, of a vision, etc. I may not know them personally, I might feel
affection and attachment because we are travellers on the same path. I do
not necessarily feel an unvaryingly fixed and higher affection for some
people because we happen to be citizens of the same country, though yes
sometimes that might be the indice along which my affection is located. But
not necessarily so. I can say with confidence that in many instances the
fact that someone is Indian will in no way compensate for the several
extremely good reasons which would make me dislike them intensly.

I hope this clarifys what I was trying to say.
regards
Aarti

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Lalit Ambardar
<lalitambardar at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Aarti,
> It is not so simple. Please go through the case story as also about  the
> 'desperate attempt' using the skills of the senior celebrity criminal lawyer
> to get that tag of 'technical grounds'  deleted. It was by no means an
> honorable acquittal. And as mentioned earlier I accept the court verdict as
> I respect the judiciary -the law of the land.
> Listen, if only you could feel & imagine what  Kashmir Hindu pandits have
> gone through at the hands of the Kashmiri pan Islamists,you would possibly
> pause before being so emotional about the man who like many others of his
> ilk is  seen openly in the company of the Kashmiri Muslim terror commanders
> turned self acclaimed leaders  spewing venom against the Indian state at
> every available forum. You need to understand the pain of wailing Kashmiri
> Muslim mothers,widows & orphans whose credulous loved ones continue to fall
> prey to the indoctrination & propaganda campaign of those who have been
> allowed to acquire a kind of political legitimacy & are pursuing their own
> sinister agenda. If only someone like you would also go & tell the Kashmiri
> masses about  the consequences of  'azadi -bara -e -Islam'.
> To adore a stone piece from uninhabitable antarctica & to love & be
> possessive about your own country & its people are in no way similar.
> Regards
> LA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:47:32 +0530
> > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com
> > To: kauladityaraj at gmail.com
>
> > CC: reader-list at sarai.net
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised
> >
> > I know. It is unfortunate isn't it? And youre right. I have run out of
> > arguments. Making an argument presumes rational discussion. When someone
> is
> > displaying nothing more than rank prejudice then no discussion or
> argument
> > is possible. I am amazed that we can read the sort of poison that issues
> on
> > a daily basis from radhika and continue to have him on this list.
> >
> > I would suggest you not give me pointers on etiquette and politness
> Aditya.
> > All I have said is shut up. Not a terribly offensive or cutting
> statement.
> > It is only asking the person concerned to desist from speaking. Certainly
> > nothing in the region of the things you have been censored for on this
> list
> > not so long ago. I am even more amazed that you can call yourself a
> secular
> > person (which you insist on doing) and condone at the same time talk
> which
> > is racist, misogynist hate speech. Before giving me platitudes it would
> do
> > well to think hard about the kind of talk you condone and the views you
> > hold. This is probably why no one takes you seriously on this list even
> > though we all are sympatehtic to the Kashmiri pandit cause. Unfortunately
> it
> > is done a great disservice by the likes of you. It is hard to have any
> > sympathy with someone who parades his victimhood at every possible
> > oppurtunity and yet is so vicious and hateful towards another community.
> It
> > is disgusting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul <
> kauladityaraj at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Its unfortunate whoever uses terms such as "Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be.
> > > Quiet." and still holds the right to be a member of this forum. If you
> run
> > > out of arguments; you don't resort to such cheap behaviour. Its better
> you
> > > take to learning; rather then proveing your best to be a so called
> > > scholarly
> > > jhollahwaalah.
> > >
> > > We are not here to read your "Pass-Time" debate. If you enjoy it; then
> > > kindly take it offline. Grow Up...!
> > >
> > > Love
> > > Aditya Raj Kaul
> > >
> > > On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Aarti,
> > > >
> > > > This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to
> make a
> > > > general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what
> is
> > > > wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule
> them?
> > > > What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to
> keeep
> > > > the
> > > > official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a
> point of
> > > > view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of
> > > privilege
> > > > to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing
> > > > discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant
> > > > emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any
> > > nation
> > > > can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation
> alone.
> > > > Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a
> Ramayana or
> > > a
> > > > Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an
> epic
> > > > scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much
> so
> > > > that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer
> > > > exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam
> war
> > > > if
> > > > not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image
> of
> > > > wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I
> think
> > > > 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The
> > > state
> > > > as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may
> not
> > > > have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but
> > > > nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of
> > > > identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever
> > > > fractured
> > > > or precarious it may be.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Nazo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Lalit,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to
> Kashmir or
> > > > > said
> > > > > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have
> left
> > > > > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this
> > > list.
> > > > > The
> > > > > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous
> sorrow
> > > > and
> > > > > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of
> > > > attachment
> > > > > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different
> order.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the
> > > > > connections in your response.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' &
> we
> > > > all
> > > > > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on
> 'technical
> > > > > grounds'
> > > > > > only.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare
> quotes
> > > > are
> > > > > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or
> > > phrase.
> > > > So
> > > > > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There
> is
> > > no
> > > > > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what
> 'even
> > > > > though
> > > > > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER
> > > > grounds
> > > > > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on
> > > technical
> > > > > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When
> there
> > > > is
> > > > > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I
> am
> > > > > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its
> really
> > > > > quite
> > > > > simple in this case.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani
> must
> > > > have
> > > > > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of
> > > things
> > > > > we
> > > > > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience.
> > > > >
> > > > > best
> > > > > Aarti
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530
> > > > > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com
> > > > > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir
> criticised
> > > > > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Lalit,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical"
> grounds
> > > > that
> > > > > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any
> evidence
> > > > > linking
> > > > > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is
> > > innocent
> > > > is
> > > > > a
> > > > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to
> hang
> > > him
> > > > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you
> > > will
> > > > be
> > > > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty
> > > > central
> > > > > to
> > > > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for
> you
> > > to
> > > > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved.
> It
> > > has
> > > > > not
> > > > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again -
> > > > terror,
> > > > > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the
> state
> > > are
> > > > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront
> each
> > > > > other
> > > > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is
> which
> > > > and
> > > > > > who is whom?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to
> > > > suspend
> > > > > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of
> > > national
> > > > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake
> > > encounters,
> > > > > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape -
> so
> > > > that
> > > > > we
> > > > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that
> > > haunt
> > > > > us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > best
> > > > > > Aarti
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar <
> > > > > lalitambardar at hotmail.com
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only.
> > > Even
> > > > > one
> > > > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get
> him
> > > > > relieved
> > > > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against
> India.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot.
> > > Here,
> > > > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in
> > > > > Kashmir &
> > > > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the
> 'land'
> > > &
> > > > > 'the
> > > > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very
> land' in
> > > > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying
> 'crush
> > > > > India'.
> > > > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are
> > > > welcome
> > > > > to
> > > > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile
> > > > > citizens'
> > > > > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that
> > > > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not
> posses
> > > it.
> > > > > > Regards all
> > > > > > LA
> > > > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' &
> 'anarchy'
> > > can
> > > > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in
> > > > > > Kashmir since 1989-90.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500
> > > > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net
> > > > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com
> > > > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir
> criticised
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Aarti,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and
> > > rights
> > > > > too
> > > > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility
> also to
> > > > the
> > > > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and
> rights.
> > > in
> > > > > fact
> > > > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties.
> Without
> > > > > duties
> > > > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave
> as
> > > any
> > > > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in
> > > society,
> > > > it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to
> > > > > individuals
> > > > > > to be free.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be
> > > > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in
> > > which
> > > > > she
> > > > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic
> then
> > > she
> > > > > has
> > > > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on
> the
> > > > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives
> in
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as
> > > > activist
> > > > > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when
> he
> > > > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground
> floor
> > > > plan
> > > > > of
> > > > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect
> nor a
> > > > > civil
> > > > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may
> > > acquit
> > > > > him
> > > > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain
> apprehension,
> > > > > because
> > > > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that
> go
> > > on
> > > > in
> > > > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for
> the
> > > > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of
> > > muslims
> > > > > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation
> feel
> > > > sorry
> > > > > > for ntire community and look with disdain.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: Aarti Sethi <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir
> criticised
> > > > > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi <nazoshmasi at googlemail.com>, sarai
> list <
> > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post
> > > > > > > > again. I used
> > > > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can
> you
> > > > > > > > love land
> > > > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which
> you
> > > > > > > > have no
> > > > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this
> is
> > > > > > > > both an
> > > > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to
> Kashmir,
> > > > > > > > does this
> > > > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The
> > > > > > > > question is
> > > > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father
> went
> > > > > > > > on a
> > > > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of
> > > > > > > > childhood is
> > > > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible
> snowscapes
> > > and
> > > > > ice
> > > > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for
> many
> > > > years.
> > > > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the
> earth
> > > > > > > > some million
> > > > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part
> of
> > > > > > > > the common
> > > > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As
> far
> > > > > > > > as I am
> > > > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative
> way
> > > to
> > > > > > > > think of
> > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional
> > > > > > > > 'ownership' over
> > > > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special
> > > > > > > > entitlement to the
> > > > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose
> land
> > > > > > > > and whose
> > > > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country
> - in
> > > > > > > > singur, in
> > > > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where
> people
> > > > > > > > are asking
> > > > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their
> own
> > > > > > > > land in the
> > > > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it
> not?
> > > > > > > > Because the
> > > > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement.
> All
> > > > > > > > land is the
> > > > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask
> > > these
> > > > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out
> > > these
> > > > > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a
> claim, I
> > > > > > > > do not feel this
> > > > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is
> where
> > > > > > > > violence is
> > > > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to
> > > collapse
> > > > > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the
> > > same
> > > > > > > > thing.
> > > > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > > area per
> > > > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious
> at
> > > > > > > > all. The only
> > > > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the
> > > > > > > > logic of the
> > > > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for
> a
> > > > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this
> territory.
> > > > > > > > This is the first
> > > > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you
> are
> > > > > > > > right, the
> > > > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask
> > > > > > > > ourselves whether
> > > > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion
> and
> > > > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss
> it
> > > > > > > > if you wish. But just
> > > > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the
> > > > > > > > whole world as
> > > > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my
> home"
> > > and
> > > > > > > > i think
> > > > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are
> > > several
> > > > > > > > ways in
> > > > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to
> be
> > > > > > > > logic of
> > > > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and
> affection
> > > > > > > > into the
> > > > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons
> or
> > > > > > > > forms of life
> > > > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and
> > > boring
> > > > > > > > for me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards
> > > > > > > > Aarti
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <
> > > > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization?
> For
> > > > > > > > that matter,
> > > > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal
> continuity
> > > > > > > > and a concept,
> > > > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for
> > > > > > > > land? As far as
> > > > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide
> > > which
> > > > > > > > fiction of
> > > > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept,
> and
> > > > > > > > whats wrong
> > > > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do
> so
> > > > > > > > is I think
> > > > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor
> > > > > > > > virus and hope
> > > > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't
> it?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Nazo
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi
> > > > > > > > <aarti.sethi at gmail.com>wrote:>
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable
> > > > > > > > element of
> > > > > > > > >> India's
> > > > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental
> > > > > > > > principles on
> > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming
> national
> > > > > > > > will as a
> > > > > > > > >> > critical
> > > > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious
> > > > > > > > adversaries" have
> > > > > > > > >> > resorted
> > > > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national
> > > will.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years
> > > > > > > > constitute a
> > > > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this
> question
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow
> > > naive
> > > > > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian',
> whatever
> > > > > > > > that is, have to be
> > > > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think
> so.
> > > Our
> > > > > > > > >> imaginations
> > > > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And
> in
> > > > > > > > fact they do,
> > > > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school.
> We
> > > > > > > > are so
> > > > > > > > >> willing
> > > > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but
> that
> > > > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The
> march
> > > of
> > > > > > > > history does not
> > > > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as
> if
> > > > > > > > 2,000 years
> > > > > > > > >> of
> > > > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian
> > > > > > > > nation'. Why is
> > > > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically
> > > > > > > > produced units
> > > > > > > > >> of
> > > > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no
> value
> > > > > > > > or that they
> > > > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have
> no
> > > > > > > > investment>> in
> > > > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation.
> There
> > > > > > > > is nothing
> > > > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking
> > > these
> > > > > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'.
> > > > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's
> future
> > > > > > > > and its
> > > > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and
> hard
> > > > > > > > about how
> > > > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question,
> it
> > > > > > > > would help us
> > > > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think
> > > > > > > > creatively at this
> > > > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can
> relate to
> > > > > > > > India.>> There
> > > > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list
> itself.
> > > > > > > > Various kinds
> > > > > > > > >> of
> > > > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can
> be
> > > > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as
> > > > > > > > "seditious" is no way to
> > > > > > > > >> go
> > > > > > > > >> anywhere.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> best
> > > > > > > > >> A
> > > > > > > > >> _________________________________________
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